Pretty much following Roy's advice as far as upgrades are concerned. I live in Hi-Fi nowhere land and have to buy used and deaf. The 'Gon has been a great resource.
Next up will be either transport or amp. Would like to nail the source first, but we shall see.
Warren, I'm being conservative in all likelyhood. Really just guessing based on average useage. Thank you for the kind compliment on my patience. Really it has been very much my pleasure.
Zilla, Sorry, I hadn't checked this thread for 2 weeks now. Anyway, I do like the Stingray. Super build quality and I for one, like the looks very much. It sounds great with a nice solid (somewhat rounded) bottom end and a very nice midrange. My first tube amp so I can't really compare. If anything I think I'm missing a bit of detail in the highs but that could be tubes or anything in the system really. Who knows? Next will be dedicated lines as that will pay off no matter what amp I end up with in the future. My room is 12x21x7.5 feet and is probably terrible accousticaly. Hardwood floors, hard plaster on walls and ceiling, 6 windows and three openings! I have had the Europas playing almost everyday for almost 2 years now. I would guess that I must be somewhere around 500 hours maybe more. I believe the bass just now opened up a little more so--keep going man! They just get better and better!
Nice lookin system. How are you liking the Stingray, 'dog? Also, what size room do you have?
My Europas continue to grow on me. I am thinking about getting a sub or a different amp, as my system is a bit bass-shy. I should add that I still haven't properly broken the Europas in (200 hours at high volume is the recommendation, if I'm not mistaken).
Anyway, I won't be changing the Europas anytime soon. They are so much better than the B&W 602 S3s they replaced.
System edited: Lost the flimsy DIY rack and bougth something real. Real solid! The Samson is a good value and a nice piece. The DH labs speaker cables are a marked improvement over the Signal cables. Instant improvement in bass response and high end clarity. At the price, I would say they are a good buy. The heavy hats work great with the triplepoints on both units. Epecially nice on the Birdland as it only weighs 3 pounds. It now has a nice stability. You have to like the look of all that heavy brass though!
Thanks 'Zilla. Let me get the new DH cables so I can get rid of the laughable "waterfall" visual at the back of the Stingray, and I will see what I can do. Scott.
System edited: I was pretty excited about getting the Sorcerers in the latest edition with the Eichmann plugs. These plugs are some kind of special copper and construction and do not share the elegant look and feel of the WBT locking RCAs on the Excallibur and Sorcerer digital. In fact they have white vinyl jackets to transition from flat oval cable to round plug. This makes them look like a couple of High School home rolled joints stickin out the back of the Stingray!! But, the sound----Yes!!! Immediately better bass weight and definition and more high frequency information as well. They have been sitting for a couple of months so after a little play time I expect even more goodness. Speaking of play time, the Stingray will need some for sure before I can comment accurately on it's sonic aspects. I will say it seems like it will have enough grunt at 50 watts to fill my rather smallish room here. That was a big concern going from 120 SS watts. No problem. Simply a georgious piece that pictures alone cannot convey. The build quality is out of this world and the controls are all billet stock and a joy to operate. I defintely need to take some time to get aquainted with this my first shot at tubes. Then I will report back. Oh, don't even think about running bannana plugs with your speaker cables as they come vertically out of the top of the amp and arc over and down to the floor. Goofy best describes the look I would say. DH labs Q10's (with spades on the way). Scott
Miijknarf, Yes thank you, that is good insight. It also squares with what I have read in many reviews of the Stingray. Overall great sound, a little forward, and limited if pushed too hard. Next week I'll know if it has enough umph for the job here. Scott.
I've always gone direct, so I won't comment about the direct sound vs. going through a preamp. I've gone direct 3 ways: first by use of EVS attenuators for volume control that mount to the rca jack on the amp (great product) with a Jolida JD100 cdp, 2nd by use of an integrated (Manley Stingray) with its built in passive pre and my Jolida, and last with my RA Opus cdp which has analog volume control direct to my Sixpacs. I just like putting the $$ of the preamp/cables into my remaining components and I like the simplicity. The Sixpacs are more authoritative at higher volumes. The Stingray is perfectly suited for a smaller size room it played sweet and smooth, but when I pushed it it couldn't keep up. The Sixpacs in my system provide more expansive highs and the ability to maintain clarity at 25% higher volumes than the Stingray. The bottom end, imho, is not much different between the two. At the end of the day, if I wanted to put together a bedroom or office system, I'd go with the Stingray/Jolida JD100 combo in a minute. The Sixpacs are not my last stop, but I think I'll be happy here for a while: smooth, detailed, nice upper end with very good soundstage. You may want to ask another member named Mattybumpkin about the Sixpacs, he also runs Europas. Hope this helped.
Miijknarf, I also have a DAC with volume control and I was checking your move to Six Pacs. Can you tell me something of the differences sonically betwwen the 'Ray and the AES? I find I like going direct through the Nad but I understand it has a marginal pre section anyway. The Stingray has a very short path passive pre so I figured to give it a try. What have you found in going to a direct route (no preamp)? Thanks, Scott.
Great choice! I moved on to a pair of AES Sixpac monos when I p/u my RA Opus cdp with volume control. I expect you will really like the Stingray and tubes. Be sure to let us know your thoughts. I think you'll be suprised with the authority it has on the low end.
It's the Manley Stingray! Should be here end of next week if all goes well (I hope). My first shot at tube equipment and a knock out looker to my eye to boot. Also Audio Magic Sorcerer IC on the way. More after I get some listen time.
Mijknarf, one of the reasons I finally decided to go with the source first is because I didn't think I was getting the most from the Birdland. With the Nad, I just thought it should have sounded better. The dac can only work with what it is fed-just like other down stream components. I'm no expert, it just makes sense. Good your dealer will let you try it first. If the Birdland sounds better then the onboard dac in the Jolida, go for it and upgrade the trans. when you are ready. I would like to know what you think of the Birdland as opposed to the Jolida dac as I have no where here to trial equipment prior to purchase. In this case you will be the expert. 'Zilla, yes I did get the Audiopoints under the Europas. These are the thin flat discs with a slight point facing down. I like them and they will stay in my system for sure. They are a clarifying and solidifying agent. That is, vocals and stringed instruments are clearer and massed instruments more discernable. The 3D image is more "solidified" as is in a way the bass to a degree. This is what I am hearing here. One warning, they take a while to break in! That's right, I said break in. First day the system sounds thin and wiry and bass is reduced substantially. After three discs or so, you might notice lyrics are clearer. Three days and the above comments start to apply. I thought I was nuts (could be), so I called Robert as Starsound and he verified that it takes 30 days to come completely right. Wh;at's happening here is the points are flattening and making a better conduit for the dispersal of resonant energy. More than that-you will have to ask him. Bottom line, I went back and bought more for the Theta and Nad C370 amp. Yeah I like 'em. If you decide to try them, ask Robert how to use Velcro to secure the speakers to the stand if you have young chlidren or large pets around as 3 of the points make them a little tippy.
In fact as I type all of this wind (whew!), I am playing the system in the next room. I am at this time in fact displacing resonant energy right through the center of the earth. On the other side of the globe, someone in China looks down at the ground and puzzled, looks at the person beside asking, "did you hear that?"
I complement you for having a plan for your upgrade path and executing it. Roy certainly knows his stuff. You even have me considering a similar path. The dealer I bought my Europas from also reps AM cables, the Birdland dac. I contacted him for a home demo of the AM Sorcere ICs and SCs as well as the Birdland. Question... did your dac or transport change make the most difference? My trial of the Birdland will be with my Jolida as a transport and I'm wondering if I will appreciate the Birdland without a quality transport.
System edited: Theta Jade, a huge upgrade to this system! Any doubts about working from the source forward in the upgrade path vanished as the Jade got a little play time. Even the world's greatest amp still needs a quality signal to work it's magic and now I can see (hear) how much was lost or garbled up in the Nad. Next, new power cords for the dac and trans and maybe upgrade the IC to Sorcerer-then amp. The sound of the Jade is simply stunning to me here.
Mijknarf, Yes, I currently have a post requesting comparisons of Manley and VAC "house sound". I have looked longingly at the Manley Stingray (can't beat that name) for it's sonics and it's looks. A good price point for me used as well. My room is the same size and description as yours, actually a little narrower. Roy highly reccomended the Stingray to me also. However 50 watts is below the 70 watts he reccomends for tube amplification. Also I don't think the amp can be used as a main, though I believe the preamp section is passive. Thanks for the input. I will check more on Manley-both the Stingray and the Snappers. Scott
Scott, another option you may consider is a manley Stingray integrated amp. I'm using one with my Europas with very good success. It's not the last word in power amps, but there are a few things that might make it a good choice for you. First, its 50 watts I find to be enough power for the Europas, second Manley's customer service is second to none, third there are several for sale here and seem to be fairly priced, last, I know Roy recommends Manley as one of his amp choices.
Regarding power, my room is an average rectangular living room approx. 14x22x8 open to a dinning room on one side and a foyer on the other. Although I don't have direct comparison to other amps recommended here, I did replace a very respected Pass Labs x250 amp with the Stingray with very satisfying results in bass and soundstage. Certainly, I'm not suggesting that the Stingray is a superior amp to the x250, two totally different approaches to amplification, however in my humble single source system, the Stingray shines.
Regarding customer service, I try to align myself with manufacturers/distributors that truly support their product and also contribute here. I just think it makes for better experience. I had a tube that wouldn't hold bias (I'm new to tubes) I have e-mailed EveAnna (top dog) and their service department and was blown away with the follow up and personal attention I received, two replacement tubes were in the mail that day.
I'm not trying to push you, only suggest the direction that has worked for me. Let us know what you decide.
I'm gonna weigh in as well, although I'm a newbie, so keep that in mind.
You have an excellent DAC, which should make up for some of the shortcomings of the NAD player. I know my Birdland Odeon Lite made a substantial difference with my NAD T562 CD player by eliminating grain, or at least eliminating grain as I perceived it. With that in mind, I might look at different amplification. For around 1k-1.5k, I think you're getting into a very nice class of used amplification.
BTW, I'm currently driving my Europas with a Belles 150 (rated @ 75 watts into 8 ohms) and it gets loud enough for me, seated about 6 feet from speakers..Also, the notes Roy gives on set up have proven to be excellent. I've got that equilateral T shape going and the imaging is supreme.
Ok, so back to amps...My list in that price range is as follows:
McCormack 125, as well as the .5. I like the amps because they are upgradeable.
Belles 150 Hot Rod or Reference. I love the sound I get from my current Belles..
I'm actually considering a Krell 300i, as well. I think their detailed nature might be well suited to the Europas.
Of the above 3, I think I favor McCormack amps the most because of their upgradeable nature.
For sources, I tend to like upgradeable ones as well. I just bought the Philips 963 for a song, and it's well suited to mods as well.
As are the Jolida 100 (great reviews on here), Music Hall CD-25, a used Sony ( a few options in their line), and Theta transports.
Hope this helps. I'm sure most of it's a repeat, but I've been spending entirely too much time on the 'gon and in front of my stereo lately. I guess I'm comin down with a bit of audiophilia nervose. Good luck and keep us posted.
Scott I would recommend you check out the Belles line of amps and pre-amps. Dave Belles builds these amps himself and the press has been great. The products Dave builds are the sleeper of the industry. Those in the loop and who have been around for years know these products are near the pinnacle but are priced within reason. Check out the press on the Belles 21a pre-amp ..compared to a $10k piece. Web site is Power Modules.com..Tom
Thanks Warren. I agree the YBA is a good choice in most cases. I like to play loud at times and am afraid I will need more power. To get the sound quality and power levels (tweeter insurance) I want will run some bigger bucks I think. Blue circle, Vac, Manley, Mccormack, Rogue-some I am considering. Will consider your advice to replace amp first. Anyone else have an opinion on that? Thanks Scott
Abbeydog, if you can find a used YBA Integre DT, you'll be in heaven. 50 of the best SS watts out there. Don't worry about hearing it, befoe you purchase. It will deliver; BIG TIME....No comparison as to what it'll do for your system over replacing the transport. Replacing the Nad? Now that'll blow your tympanics away. Not even close. It may be the start of an audiophool total upgrade. Been there done that..... This is how it starts. I did say May..don't be afraid. Jump out there. We'll watch your back/ears. .peace, warren
