Just returned to pre/pwr from an intergrated as I was keen to try the amps that were built for my speakers. Will let things settle and then experiment with different pre's. Only a day in with this setup which was poor on switch on but the sound evolved over the first few hours and is now pretty enjoyable.
A whole year and no changes to my system, who'd have thought? Not me having spent the last decade constantly making changes.
That's not to say I've not been tempted and other equipment hasn't passed through.
The preamp session alluded to by Paul in his post on this thread was my real eye opener.
It's easy to carried away considering whats 'best' andimposing ones view of how music should be presented in the home. The pre shootout experience demonstrated how different everyones taste is. I guess even in the concert hall we all have our preference, some like to be close and immersed, others, me included, like to look into the performance from a distance.
The experience also demonstrated that expectation of equipment can be easily confounded by it's use in a new room and system.
I was keen to pit my Aesthetix against some of it's natural competitors as well as seeing how it might stand up to competition from a couple of pre's with stellar reputations.
I've heard the ARC Ref3 in more than one system that I've enjoyed and it or a REF5 have been top of my list of pre's within budget to try. That opportunity arose as a friend broke down his system, something I know he's loath to do and kindly added it to the mix for a day here. To it was also added a Puresound L300, Audio Note UK M5, Shindo Vosne Romanee and Robert Koda K-10. All the pre's are a step up in price from mine, some more than others!
Now the interesting bit... It would be true to say that all of these pres offered something or other that mine misses. In particular greater detail and weight, bass lines were punchier and more solid. I can understand the strong preference some had for this addition to the presentation. However it tended to change the perspective of the system. The soundstaging took a couple of steps forward running the L300, Ref3 and M5. That more immersive sound I mentioned. Too much for my liking, though I'd imagine others would have a strong preference for this vantage.
I also had the immpression that while this added weight was beneficial with some material there was also a slight tendency toward over emphasis. Now, having heard the Ref3 in a much better environment for listening than my room I'd tend to think the room and it's synergy with my system the main culprit. In another system these pre's could likely sound more neutral.
That said there were a couple of jokers. The Shindo sounded beautiful and didn't change the persepective, it was new with only a few hours on it and there was comment that bass was a little light using it. I'd guess the bass would fill out as it broke in and it'd be interesting to know what effect that'd have on the perspective. In any case I didn't have a problem with the bass and it delivered a musicality that only really superior tube amps seem to be able to achieve. Neutral? Who cares it was beautiful.
So to the Robert Koda. It somehow seemed to offer all the benefits of the other pre's without changing the perspective. The comment from others was that it sounded wonderfully neutral (in the best possible sense). It just seemed to let the music flow unhindered by comparison to the other pre's on the day. I enjoyed it most as it retained what I like about the sound of my system but gave me more of it. A wonderful piece of kit that I'm sure it would sound better and better with sympathetic equipment of a level beyond my system.
The upshot of the day was I decided to stick with what I have, I get great enjoyment from it. Should funds ever become available to begin to dabble in the Koda direction it'd be one I'd persue. For now though it's time to put on another cd.
I got to spend a morning with Defride going through various CD's on his wonderful system, and I must say it sounded great, very balanced, well set-up and thoroughly enjoyable.
Great news on these Sylvania's too, generally very good sounding tubes that are not hyper detailed and not too warm, but great musicality..
Do keep us posted on your pre amp session too, some good pieces coming out to play!
Lapierre, I've been pretty settled with my system. For me, it just gets out of the way and lets the music flow unencumbered by the 'system'.
There's always an itch to scratch... Ps68 lent me some of his speaker cable Z:Axis a couple of weeks back and its nice. Add's a beautiful sense of tone and air that isn't night and day but I definately notice when they're not in there, particularly with the likes of piano.
The Calypso sounds great but has been a little noisey with various tubes since I've had it. I decided to explore other pre's and arranged for a few guys to stop by this weekend coming with their pre's. A dealer I know dropped off a Puresound L300 last night and the guys are due to bring an ARC Ref3, Shindo Vosne Romanee and Audio Note(UK) M5 amoungst others.
Thing is, in the meantime I picked up a pair of Sylvania 5751 cheaply which I figured would be great backups at the price. Gave them a spin to make sure they were working and wow, they cured the noise issues! Whats more they sound great.
Should be a good and interesting session in any case.
Yes, my EMM does have some transport issues. I've the original transport. On occiasion it can spin up with some noise before it seems to lock onto the signal and the noise disappears, if you skip to the next track the noise disappears. On the odd disc it won't lock and I need to repeatedly press load to release the disc.
It's annoying but rare and the thing sounds great. I've not yet been bothered enough to justify the high price of a new transport. Hoping they don't stop offering backup anytime soon.
I did buy a little Arcam rDAC KW so I can stream spotify to the hifi. It's good, engaging and easy to listen to, not in the same league as the EMM but plenty good enough to check out unfamiliar material
Look forward to hearing where you're headed in the new room. Are you going to dem a pair of Raidho's one of these days? :-)
Emm Labs CD player question: Does you transport sound a bit noisy when powered on? Initial start is noisy than it gets quiet like it needs to warm up first.
Lapierre, good luck. Hope its a buyers market where you are as it is here!
After spending more time listening I think PC's are definitely a listen and see item. Some components seem more sensitive than others but even then I don't see the night and day differences that others sometimes comment on. A-B-A tends to be, notice a difference then back to sounds pretty good in any case, that's comparing a decent cord with an expensive one. Does that makes sense?
Hi Aaron, when I ran a Wadia 301 for a while placing a weight on top of the cdp made an astonishing difference. I used a granite placemat with rubber feet. Tried it with the EMM and didn't notice any difference. EMM Labs tack a damping material to the internal casework in any case, perhaps thats why?
Welcome your insights on which component benefited the most from your Power Cord experiment. I plan to upgrade power cords tube amps, preamp and source but I need to go through the listening process. Experimented with DVD player and noticed different power cords improved the video clarity but no obvious audio improvements.
Regarding the potential new listening room. So far, I've managed to look at decent houses with potential listening rooms larger than 12x12 space. Trying to avoid basements unless it has the min. height of 8 feet and no moisture problems.
Good to hear Panzerholz isn't perhaps as formidable as the reputation that proceeds it. Quite a few F1 motor racing teams are based near us and I'm told they can be a source of offcuts as they use it for bash guards under the cars.
Secret black boxes??? Do you mean the sofa? LOL, to be fair without the sofa's the room rings a bit!
You know, for all I've heard about how hard panzerholz is to work with, unless it's mass quantities you're cutting, it really isn't that bad. Sure, it's heavy, but there are ways around that. If someone is just working with smaller sizes (approx 3'x1.5') and smaller quantities, there's really no reason at all to be put off by its workability. This is coming from the carpenter who built my stands. It was his first time working with panzerholz, too. If you do decide you want to acquire this material someday, although its only North American distributor is in Ontario, Canadaused in large industrial sizesthey do sell small cutoffs in various thicknesses.
Regarding the Dynamat: (again, for what it's worth), before I had my stands, my CD player sat on a coffee table. That was when I implemented the Dynamat. I covered everywhere I possibly couldinside and underneathwithout compromising the circuitry. I only noticed one substantial change, but a substantial one nevertheless. In Bjork's "Biophillia," (track 8, I think (?) (whichever one starts with a bunch of glockenspiel), those high frequencies; the notes; the articulations; they were all resolved in a shockingly clearer way. Apart from that, I haven't noticed any other improvements. That was enough to convince me that it was making a good difference, and perhaps elsewhere where I haven't detected.
By the way, I just noticed that black object to the right of your rack. I'm curious: What is that? A sub? A seat? Some secret magical hi-fi device we've all yet to be blown away by?
Yes, Panzerholz looks an interesting product, not so easy to aquire and work with in DIY quantities where we are. I've heard Kaiser's a few times, I see you've posted your system, looks good, I'll post a few comments there.
I've tried Dynamat and like products, I had high hopes in particular that it would make a difference on the casing of an enclosed cdp transport. I didn't notice a great deal of difference in that or the other applications I used it. Thats not to say in other instances it wouldn't be entirely beneficial.
Hi, Dan. Regarding the context, you can read for yourself here if you like (pages 4-5).
"Your suggestion that trying different acoustic absorbing material is a good one, do you have any suggestions?"
I'm not aware of any substance that better handles vibration than panzerholz (a.k.a. "tankwood"). It's highly regarded by many who've tried the material as a turntable plinth. Clearaudio uses it for their turntables; Kaiser uses it for their stands and speaker cabinets; LessLoss uses it as an enclosure for their Tunnelbridge interconnect system and Firewall power conditioner. I myself use it for my audio stands in the digital domain. Go here for a user-friendly study concerning the effectiveness of its damping properties.
Another way to deal with component vibration is to use Dynamat anywhere possible underneath and inside your components (particularly your source component). I would do this (have done it already), even if I could or couldn't get my hands on some panzerholz. But anyway, I'm in no way suggesting that you really need to do any of this because of your rack. I guess I'm just exploring the possibilities of how its effectiveness might be taken even further given the current design and what can be said concerning vibration control.
Hi Lapierre, good luck with your search, hope you're able to squeeze a great listening space in along with other more practical requirements.
Yes, I have spent a bit of time recently trying different power cords. I've rather fallen out with power conditioning, in the past I have had the opportunity to try high current filters that 'cleaned' the mains and blocked dc. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that a decent power cord direct from the mains was doing as good a job and in some cases better than the filters I had the opportunity to try. Thats not to say there arn't great products out there that may make a more positive difference, I'd love to hear Tripoint one day.
I've got an Acoustic Zen Absolute and some UK made cords to try at the moment. The Acoustic Zen does seem to make a difference but its unwieldy and expensive. I think I may settle on UK brand called Missing Link. They seem to me to offer up most of what the AZ does at a fraction of the cost.
Their site can be found here (though its not the prettiest!)
http://www.the-missing-link.net/
Hi Aaron, thats an interesting analysis by Vertex. They are certainly a company that has done the research so its hard to argue. I wonder about the context of the statement and definition of 'sound energy'? As I understand there are a few ways to damp resonance and in the context of a hifi component reduce a potential source of noise, adding mass and as you note draining energy amoungst them. Vertex work on the principal of a mechanical earth draining resonance within the audible frequency range don't they? As far as I was aware products with viscoelastic properties also damp resonance(?).
Your suggestion that trying different acoustic absorbing material is a good one, do you have any suggestions? The straps on the rack are not actually rubber, rather a form of Neoprene iirc. I did try blocks of the stuff at one point without success, the fact that the straps are under stress seems to make a difference (mass of the component weighing on them maybe?)
Personally I now use the rack as a structure to support Alto Extremo absorber products. I'll update the system picture when I get a chance.
As regards the TASS rack in general, it certainly works in some systems for whatever reason, I can only speculate as to why, I have no practical knowledge of the subject area other than my ears. That said I'm not alone in my experience using the rack. Alan Sircom at Hifi+, Hifi Choice, Hifi World and a couple of other publications have been pretty consistant in their praise.
Hi, Defride. I guess this is what I had in mind when I was thinking of the rubber-strap suspension:
When you place 2 dissimilar-characteristic materials into firm contact with each other, say steel against rubber, sound energy in one will not readily pass into the other, it will bounce off the junction and be reflected back." -- Vertex AQ
With vibration traveling through the floor, up through the speaker rack, I can see how the rubber straps would be a good thing: vibration that the non-rubber portion of the rack failed to absorb will likely have a very difficult time passing through the rubber suspension into the suspended component.
On the other hand, any vibration picked up by the component (e.g., vibration generated by moving speaker cones, through the air, and/or across cables) , or generated by the component itself, has no real drainage path. Since the component's primary contact is rubber and it's enclosure is likely made of metal, it's reasonable to think that any such vibration just mentioned will not drain away from the component to be absorbed elsewhere, but rather be stored temporarily, only to "bounce back" into the component because of the high acoustic impedance between the rubber and the enclosure.
That being said, I don't want you to think I'm dissing your stand. It looks like a great stand. I don't doubt it does good things for audio-reproduction. And I guessassuming my previous conclusions are correctthat putting the right acoustic absorbing material (in the right degree) between each component and the rubber suspension straps, would work to prevent the the return of acoustic energy into the components, from the components.
Whatever the case, I like your stand: nice balance of aesthetics and function. Your system as a whole has a beautiful simplicity to it :)
Oh, and thanks for including the other advice I asked for. Too bad I don't really have an experienced ear to come listen to my system.
Hi Aaron and Humbuster, thanks for you're kind comments.
Aaron, take a look at the highly regarded $30k SME turntables, if you've not already noticed look at the way they're suspended.
I watched the guy who builds these racks develop the product over a couple of years. I was very sceptical when he popped around with a first prototype. It made a difference so once he had an acceptable looking product I bought one (and sold quite a bit of expensive racking and support products).
I went on to hear it make a big difference with some components, a noticeable difference with some and none at all in other systems. My experience with support suggests there is no best support, different components are affected in different ways by their environment and little other than experience is going to tell you which is going to work well with a given component.
In essence the concept behind the straps are firstly to help isolate a component from the outside environment and at the same time damp the case work. From here it's horses for courses.
While all my components seem to benefit to a degree from the strap approach I have subsequently found that Alto Extremo absorbers perform better under my pre and cdp though they are expensive and I'm yet to commit to their purchase (though I think I will). Under my amps the AE's perform no better than the straps, I run the straps for the amps in a different arrangement to the one you see pictured. There is a wood block between the amps so they are supported by the straps not the granite platform.
The rack has had some very good press recently, UK title Hifi World has given it a 5 out of 5 review with the reviewer purchasing as he prefered it to his previous reference.
The latest version uses carbon or acrylic columns rather than blocks between the shelf supports though I believe versions such as mine are still available to order.
Re speaker position. An experienced ear can be very helpful. I think a good proportion of us get used to the sound of our system. It sometimes takes another pair of ears in the room to notice slight anomalies.
In my case a local dealer popped over as he'd wanted to hear Kharma and noticed that while the central imgaging was rock solid on a couple of live tracks audience noise was tending to localize slightly toward the right channel. Moving the left channel speaker 2-3cm forward balanced the soundstage with the crowd noise now coming from across the room better than before, however the impact was seen across the board. Subsequent adjustment of the speakers a little further apart and tilting slightly upward have also been beneficial.
I don't doubt there is more to be had from moving the speakers in my room however it isn't practical to make substantial changes within a communal living space. One of these days I will get a room analyzer and make some measurements. Until then I'll enjoy listening to a few more tunes.
Thalis, good luck in your search for the right system. It sounds like you're on to an interesing path. I think we'd all be interested to know what you settle on.
Himiguel, thanks for your input. Yes, I have no doubt that in an approriate setting the K-10 is a far superior unit to the Calypso. Perhaps I should have made that clear.
The Calypso is poor from a noise point of view, the Ayre, K-10 and a few other Pre's I have had in my current system reproduce very little noise from the tweeter. The Calypso produces noticeable white noise even from a distance though its not intrusive from the listening position. Balanced against this is the fact that it is very musical (to these ears) and I enjoy listening with it.
While I'd love to eradicate the noise the expense required to make a substantial difference is going to be, well, substantial I suspect.
I've enjoyed reading others experience of your products and admire your attention to detail.
Defride, if the foundation of noise rejection in the system is not up to the part, you will misjudge the K-10. I understand why you like the Calypso in your system with your existing conditions. Happy Listening
Very nice looking system. The idea of rubber straps as a partial means of vibration control doesn't make much sense to me, but the rest of the the rack seems well thought out: it looks really great! By the way, what was that speaker positioning advice you mentioned?
Hi Thalis, following on from your query on Kiwi's thread, the Koda K-10 is not mine, a dealer I know lent it to me for a few days.
It was interesting to have it in my system. At the time I had an Ayre K5xemp. The K-10 was clearly a step up from that pre, similar in character but more of everything. Rather surprisingly, good though it was there was no great, wow!. We have speculated that there may have been some sort of electrical mismatch with the cables I was using at the time.
I prefer the more spatious presentation of the Calypso in my system. That said there have been significant changes to support and cables since I had the K-10 here, it would be interesting to try it again one day.
