I've had this system together for about a week now.
A couple of things I've learned:
1.) The importance of speaker placement...I spent about 4 hours setting up the speakers and the soundstage is finally a soundstage. It's so great to close your eyes and feel like she's singing right in front of you.
2.) I like sweetness. This system is more detailed than my NAD/B&W combo, but there is a sweetness to the sound that keeps me glued to my sofa.
3.) I like Birdland...I used my Etymotic ER-4S headphones to listen to my gear with and without the Birdland made, and the differences were quite noticeable. Grain was almost entirely eliminated.
4.) I love Green Mountain Audio. I haven't even broken these speakers in, but they are categorically better than my B&W 602 S3s. **take the prior statement w/a grain of salt as I changed more than just my speakers in my system, so it's difficult to attribute causality to the Europas** I will say that the resolution of the Europas at low volumes is entrancing, and the vocals...oh the vocals!
Where would you go from here? I'm not sure I'll upgrade anytime soon, but if I were to, my budget is around 1.5k. I can't decide if I should change the source or the amp.
Try the following if you can...Radio Shack sells a surge protector/filter which is white in color and plugs directly into wall socket to expand to six. Place this in an outlet SEPARATE from the rest of the system and plug ONLY the transport OR dac in it....then both. Tell me what you think. Nominal cost and you may just see that grain disappear. Depending which component I plug into it, I can also change the shape of the sound stage....weird stuff. One other voodoo approach (and this might just work)..try and cheat the plug of your dac if it has a ground, the same for the cd player (you may find the approach successful with just one or the other, or maybe neither). If your 963 is picking up any hash in the AC through ground, the previous two suggestions will change the sound... I tried these and they improved the top end but also took a little of the dynamics out of the equation. (Of course, consider the potential hazard of eliminating a ground in a component designed with such)...Sensing I had some grain in the power supply I bypassed EVERY capacitor in my cd player to "stabilize all power feeding the regulators" (i'm a layman), increased the power supply caps and added a center weight in the spindle of the transport with a screw washer and felt. Voila, like a player with a top end rivaling some 2500 players I have heard. Makes sense, though, less error reading the disc, better power supply regulation=less jitter. It sounded good enough to retire a DPA renaissance...(although the DPA has since died). What I'm saying is experiment. Try the TDK ferrous filters on power main wires, they work sometimes.
Last, your interconnects should be changed if you feel something missing in the "amount or delivery musical information" department. In fact, I'd almost do this first...here goes...don't take me for a hack for writing this....I've used Kimber, Audioquest, Home brews (wbt's with PBJ braided), MIT, whatever...and use none of them. Radio shack sells a digital signal cable, coaxial type, with RCA terminations in the "Gold" line of their products. These do not have a color coding on them for channels (like red, white or black) Now, these things are 60 bucks a pair (not budget inexpensive, but for the performance read on). Christ do they sound INCREDIBLE. Here's a tip, they need TIME to break in...more than people, knowing these are Radio Shack, will give....but you will be handsomely rewarded...they are beautiful sounding. Lush without being overipe. Detail without being clinical. Bass pitch well defined. Dynamic. Excellent frequency extremes with a "friendly top end" Not that they roll off much, because in a good system all the "air" remains, except it sounds like "air" (crazy statement, I know) not fizz. Talk about coherent, you betcha! Do NOT consider the AUDIO(rather than digital) connectors titled GOLD with the filters on them. They DO NOT sound the same.
I know I have opened myself to much ridicule, but I have proof, friends come listen, jaw drop and then think I'm pulling there leg. They thinks I've spent a fortune on my system. HAH! Etc....
Now if you were really brave, you'd hard wire your speaker cable to your speakers....(I used a VERY hefty Belden cable from Home Depot...with four conductors and black jacket in case I bury the thing underground (ha ha)......each conductor insulated with some rubber type material and separated by compressed paper/cardboard. AVOID that pvc insulation, there is something to the science....your interaction between your amp and speakers has a lot to do with this type of tweak. Ive heard the Belles with the kimber speaker cables (Hero I believe) and it was marvelous.
Down the road I see The preamp thing as your move. Amplification of low level signals is crucial and where most of the "make or break" comes into play.
Last word here, I've been long winded as it is.... but the preamp decision if you should eventually decide as such will be very important. (I.E...where the budget consideration should be weighed VERY carefully). As crazy as this sounds, I have NEVER heard a GREAT system with an inexpensive preamp BUT I have heard great budget systems with exceptional preamps. I have heard the quicksilver linestage and the Audible Illusions with the Belles in a direct comparison, just pulling the interconnects out of one to the other. The Audible did circles around the quicksilver (which isn't too shabby). The soundstage was cavernous (thanks to the Wadia)......which is to say, what would be the better purchase, a used Audible for 1200, a new quicksilver for 1000 or a used quicksilver for 600-650....BUT WAIT, a used CJ pv12 with phono used is 1000 and musical as hell (you'll go through many a tube though)....and the phono stage will give that Hagerman a good run if not surpass it....so you kill 2 birds with one preamp.....BUDGET
Alas, what is a "Budget" system anyway? Good luck DUBZILLA and keep us informed...always nice to see what others are trying....did I mention inexpensive isolation?
So, I've added a Phillips 963SA. While the music playback isn't necessarily any better than the NAD T562, the Phillips can output DVD movies' audio in PCM, so that the Birdland can decode the signal properly. So now, I can watch movies and listen to stereo through this system.
I also have Osiris 24.5 stands, in case I hadn't mentioned that.
Right now, I consider myself as happy as I can afford to be. I'm working on obtaining a Lenco TT to play my parents' old records. I'll probably build a Hagtech Corent phono-pre. Then I will probably take Nudaddy's preamp advice.
I will eventually upgrade my digital interconnect, and then maybe move to a slightly more powerful amp (possibly the Belles 150a Hot Rod, or maybe tubes....)
Overall, I'm pretty damn satisfied with this system. There are some things I'd definitely like to change, BUT the sound is still very pleasing. 10x better than my last system. Thanks again to the 'goners. : )
THE BELLES AMP IS CAPABLE OF INCREDIBLE THINGS. I think you need a preamp to amplify the low voltage signal...(use tubes and audition)...the Audible Illusions Modulus 3a is a GREAT combo with the Belles. I've auditioned this combo countless times with incredible results.....NO GRAIN. I heard with the wadia 861 as source. I've heard the Belles play extremely clean. Your speakers should be broken in by now..
Zilla, I am using the Audio Magic Sorcerer digital coax. Works great! I want to upgrade my IC's to Sorcerer or even Illusions. No power conditioner, first dedicated lines but the money now I think has to go for an amp. The Audio points have been too revealing of the Nad's character. I would say that they "tighten up" the sound. Hard to describe. I only have them under the Dac and between the speakers and stands. I think the sorbothane blurred the sound and posed a phony "bloom" of sorts. Now the Nad is clean, powerful and even more boring than it was before. Funny, I too thought the system was starting to sound pretty good. So, a new amp. I'm thinking to try tubes for the first time as well. Oh, if you have young kids that may bump your speakers, forget the cones there. They do make the speakers tippy! No problem here. And so it goes. Scott
Yeah, man...NEW AMP! Also, don't forget the source upgrade, and analog what about analog? POWER CONDITIONING!? GOTTA HAVE IT! lol. I thought my system was complete. No such luck.
Good luck on the amp search. Keep me posted, as I'm curious to hear what more power, and a different amp might sound like in my system. I'd love to a/b some of my amp choices, but it just ain't possible, so I'm very inclined to stink with Belles just because I'm likin what I'm hearing..
I'm using the Osiris 24.5 speaker stands. They are way better than my previous stands in terms of heft and decoupling (massive carpet spikes on the Osirii). I purchased the stands on, you guessed it, 'goners' recommendations. The stands are mass-loadable, and I have about 100 pounds of sand drying out in my basement for just that.
I am using Audio Magic Excalibur II IC's, as well as Speaker cable. The only non-Audio Magic interconnect is my digital coax. What brand do you use? AM there as well?
Please do let me know how the audio points work out for you. Also, have you considered any sort of power conditioner?
My next changes are going to be:
Philips 963 (eventually modded) Black Diamond cones beneath my transport Audio Points for speakers pending your review Some sort of power conditioner Amp upgrade Birdland upgrade (I"m either going to switch to an Odeon AG or have my Lite upgraded) New house with dedicated room Wife that likes loud music Kids that don't touch my toys
Dubzilla, Sorry I see you don't use the Nad C370 (good for you). Curious, do you have good stands now for the Europas? I have recieved the Audio Points and am currently evaluating them. If you haven't tried the Audio Magic IC's yet, I would say go. An immediate improvement over the Signal stuff I was using. OOOOOOOOOOOhhh, I think I need a new amp!!!!!!!!! Scott
Zilla, Are you using the Birdland dac direct (bypassing the pre in the C370)? I found there to be simply no comparison between the two options. You will definitely pick up bass response after 100-200 hours on the Europas. Good stands are a must. They will improve your bass response and give the midrange percussives more impact (guitar plucks etc.) Even replacing the old outlets with hospital grade Hubbels has helped. All little things, a little at a time. Scott
What happend to reporting back after 200 hours? 30 hours? That's nothing. A little impatient, there, Dubzilla. I hope you have them sitting on excellent stands. Give them their 200 hours. I'm sure, the speed (pace) of your speakers will improve. . That's one of the benefits of breakin....
I feel like the drum impacts are somehow slow...It could be that because I'm a dj, I'm used to beats being completely on time all the time, but I can't help but feeling as if the drum hits are always lagging a bit.
This money really is burning a hole in my pocket. I'm buying media as quickly as possible, but I hate getting saturated with new CDs, it somehow reduces their value to me.
A couple of things I've noticed:
-bass response isn't quite where I'd like it to be (granted, I have maybe 30 hours of break-in vs. the recommended 200, so that might be it)
-the feeling of pace isn't really there.
Any suggestions of what the problem may be?
I'm not averse to implementing subs, but really, the pace issue is a bigger priority to me.
Yes. Why do we constantly feel we need to change something? Save your money for your old age! If your system doesn't do something obviously wrong, your there! Enjoy it for a while. BUT -if that $1500 starts burning a hole in your pocket, look for an early version BEL 1001. BEL amps are spooky good...
You're loving your system. That's beautiful. Wait until you don't love it no maw, then we'll help you out. Let your credit card a rest, break in those Europas, sit back, and enjoy your tunes. peace, warren
