Matt's System

by matt8268 on Opinions Please

Description

Neat! Just listed my system with the very cool Virtual System creator. No more retyping my components. Looking for feedback on my first (albeit low end) all-audiophile system. All components except cables were bought used. This post is LONG, sorry. If you've got the time to read it, I'd love your opinion on how I can get the sound I'm looking for.

I find my system somewhat bright and thin sounding. My non-audiophile friends all say it sounds great, but my ears seem to get more discriminating with every upgrade I make. This current configuration was hurting (fatiguing) my ears something awful, so I moved the speakers back about a foot so they were very close to the wall. This helped somewhat with this problem (but didn't fix it), as well as stepped up the bass in my small room (nice!). Supposed to be a no-no to put speakers 1 foot away from wall, but for me it seems to sound the best there (speakers are bottom ported, maybe this is why). Can't put them significantly away from wall, room won't allow.

It's tough for me to describe exactly why I'm not thrilled with my system, because my lingo isn't that advanced and I haven't really heard any other systems to compare it to. I find I can't get sucked into the music because it's almost like the music is not all there. I want it to be smoother, richer and fuller (not louder, mind you). So I turn up the volume hoping to get a rich, full sound, but I only get louder thin music, which really hurts my ears after minutes of listening. Also, male vocals especially, but some instruments as well sound fuzzy to me. It's almost like it's a fuzziness caused from the sound being thin. Like there's information missing and so it doesn't sound convincing like someone is singing in front of you. I can localize lead singers right in the middle of my soundstage, they just sound blurry and thin and not all there.

My own speculations are that the Creek pre is causing the thin sound, or that the rather low powered (105Wx2) amp isn't sufficiently powering my 86db speakers that are rated up to 200WPC. My components are all used (some of them well used), and it's also possible one or more is defective. I've been thinking about changing out the amp and pre for a good integrated, like a Plinius 8200. This integrated would fit in my limited space, and even has a HT passthru for my receiver (I have a combined system). My reading suggests the 8200 mkII is superior, but it's the mk1 that's more in my price range, around $1400 used. Would love opinions on whether people think this is a good choice, and if so how important the differences between the 8150, 8200mk1, and 8200mk2 would be in my system. Since my system is all used, unfortunately I've had to buy, plug, and play. I'd love to be able to audition equipment, but it just doesn't seem worth it to me to spend twice as much to buy new.

Couple more things. Previous posts have had people suggest that I change cables or install room treatments. I'm not against them, but I decided I don't want to focus on these until I first really like the sound of my stereo. I would like to purchase cables to improve the sound, not fix it. Also, I am afraid of tubes and the maintenance involved, so am trying to stick to solid state.

Thanks so much for your opinions,

Matt.
Read more...

Components Toggle details

    • Music Hall MMF CD-25
    HDCD playback
    • Joseph Audio RM-22si sig
    pair, 6.5in woof, 1in twtr, 50 lbs
    • Zu Cable Oxyfuel
    1 meter
    • Zu Cable Wax
    10 foot true biwire
    • Plinius 8200 mkII
    integrated amp
    • Music Hall MMF-7
    with stock tonearm and Goldring Eroica cartridge

Comments 27

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I'm going to add one more notion here even though I'm late to the party, just because something rings a bell (to use a bad analogy).

That turning up the volume you mentioned above, Matt--to get something fuller and richer--is probably all done with now that you have a new amp. But nobody mentioned what is usually the reason for it, in my limited experience. That is lack of detail. Until I got quality electronics myself, I was always listening loud because definition seemed just out of reach. Things would fade in and out of focus in subjective milliseconds.

You have pretty good electronics now, but the source is where detail starts and nothing downstream can add it. You might take a look at your CDP to see how much more detail you can get out of it. That was maybe the biggest difference I noted between my Shanling CD-S100 (same as the MMF CD-25) and the next step up (the CD-S100 Mk II in my case). Before I made that upgrade, though, a good power cord on the S100 gave me an extra slice of information that was very welcome.

I could have continued the upgrade path with the player, modding clock and op amps, but I chose to move up the line instead.

Your system looks very nice to me. If there is any imbalance I think it is upstream, at the source.

tobias

Owner
System edited: Changed my cables.

matt8268

Matt: You might look at the Kimber 4-tcs. I used to use them, and I found that Analysis Plus Oval 9 is warmer and more dynamic. The Kimbers are good, but they always seem a little edgy to me. Cardas stuff also seems to have a pleasant presentation. Anyway, I am enjoying the evolution of your system!

crazy4blues

Good move.

KF

tok20000

Owner
System edited: Added Plinius 8200 mkII integrated in place of creek/Mac combo. Also added Music Hall MMF-7 turntable.

matt8268

Owner
Well, thanks for all the feedback. I ended up replacing both the McIntosh amp and the Creek passive with a Plinius 8200 mkII integrated. System now sounds wonderful, and Plinius JUST went in, so it will no doubt get better as this component warms up.

Before adding the Plinius, I experimented with running through my Denon (crappy) preamp. Although it muddled the sound, it got rid of the ear hurting problem. Therefore, in my system, I believe the Creek was the culprit for the ear hurting problem. It is possible my ears hurt because there was too much accurate musical information coming out of them. I sort of doubt it, however, and know for sure that if that is what accurate music sounds like, I want no part of it.

matt8268

Matt,The first thing you need to do is get your speakers dialed in (placement) next thing to do is get a few pairs of speaker wire and interconnects on loan from your local stereo store or from usedcable.com they will loan you wires, this will put you in the right direction. your preamp and cd are the weak links, Classe, Conrad Johnson, PS Audio make nice preamps, Cal Audio, Theta, EAD make some nice CD player or DAC-CD combos. You can get some great deals on this stuff used. Last thing you need to get are some room treatments like echo busters, sonex, tubetraps, this can do wonders for your system. Back to the cables, I think It's better to stick with all cables in system from the same company, Just my opinion but alot of people agree on this, power cords are important also.Have fun and do one change at a time!

jsawhitlock

Hello, easy answer,ditch the McIntosh.The new McIntosh amps are nothing special, the old solid state Macs are much worse. Unlistenable.

futterman

I had a creek, and recently got a Rogue Tempest Magnum integrated... Much more dimension, warmth and palpability.

buxter66

Get some warmer sounding equipment. I had a creek, moved to a rotel and then classe. You may want to go the same route to add some warmth.

elevick

Hi Matt-

No shame in buying used gear - best way to go in my book, especially here where some folks change components as often as they brush their teeth! Also, I agree with you completely that tweaks are premature at this point if your overall system sound is not engaging or satisfying to you. No tweaks or room treatment is going to make the kind of change you desire. I'd agree with many who have answered you already that, if you want to make a significant sonic improvement in the overall sound of the system you already have, then you should probably look at changing your amp and pre-amp. If you are looking for the warmth and lushness of tubes, you will only find a close second in Amps like Plinius and Pass Labs that both have the reputation of tube-like mids with SS detailed-authority. I recently acquired a Pass Labs Aleph 5 which is certainly the most tube-like sounding SS amp that I've ever heard, but it still falls short of most of the good tube rigs I've owned and heard in direct comparison. It has merits of its own which bear consideration, but those merits are different from those of a great tube setup. Don't get me wrong, the Pass Labs is a great amp, and every bit of what the Plinius is (if not more) but if you want tube sound, go for the real deal! Unfortunately at 86db efficiency your excellent Joseph Audio speakers are going to require quite a bit of tube punch to make them sing without falling apart at the edges. The Plinius indeed might make for a good compromise, but I do believe it is still a compromise. I'd dump both the Creek and the old Mac, and go for an integrated tube amp with a bit of power behind it. I might look at an Audiomat Arpège Integrated, but at 30wpc it may not be enough for your boxes. Used ones are available for around $1400-1600. A Jolida 502B would also be worth considering as a nice integrated if your budget is tight, and that will have some power to boot. Just make sure to dump those crappy Chinese tubes that come with the amp and replace them with NOS or perhaps some Svet's or Tesla's. Then you might get into some of the DIY tweaking with that amp and make it really shine! If you want something more punchy...a tube amp pretending to be SS, should you be into the rock and roll..you may be able to find a Mesa Baron in this soft market for $1500. You'd still need a pre though. Just make sure they pack and ship that anvil properly! That amp will drive the most power-hungry speakers! It is not a really refined tube sound, but it sure can punch out the tunes, and is certainly an engaging listen! High maintenence though (16 tubes in all)! If you really KNOW you want to have that refined, airy, warm, wide and deep tube sound with no holds barred, then I'd suggest that you drop your speakers too for more efficient ones that are better suited to tubes. Not that yours aren't great when paired with the right amp, but it would be a lot easier to find a compatible and affordable tube rig for a more efficient pair of speakers. OK, so are you completely confused now?! Ain't this addiction FUN?!

jax2

Matt, overall you have a nice system. I would recommend not touching a thing until you try another amp in place of the McIntosh.

There are several choices I can think of in the budget you speak of. Odyssey Stratos is supposedly a fantastic amp for $1000 and is rated better than many amps costing much, much more. Look at the numerous excellent reviews on this amp at odysseyaudio.com

Also, the Audio Refinement Complete integrated amp is another choice. Though the Audio Refinement Complete does not have the power of the Stratos, it is rated the equal to the Stratos. It retails new for about $1100 or used for about $700.

Either of these two amps should bring vast improvements to your otherwise nice system.

In addition, you should see if you can find a 'good' muscial subwoofer used for about $700 to $1000. There's a few out there and reproducing the bottom octaves via a nice sub should really warm things up quite a bit.

-IMO

stehno

I cannot believe all the different opinions you are getting here! I will tell you flat out...it's the amp. All the other components you have are AWESOME! Older vintage macs look nice ...but they CANNOT compete with the sound of newer ones ...I have owned several Mac amps and the older ones have the problems that you describe... Even the folks at Audio Classics ...the Mac pros in vestal told me about the sound difference... All in all it boils down to opinion I guess ...but I went through what you are going through and the MAC was the weakest link!

squiddy

Upgrading to a Plinius integrated amp would get you better sound.

KF

tok20000

Hi Matt I will just leave you this link for speaker placement.

http://members.cox.net/azaudiophile/cardis/placement.htm

I did try a million different ways to set up mine, but in the end it all came down to the cardas measurement calculation.

Does work wonderful and you may need to adjust a little further for room living factor unless it is a dedicated listening room.

As far as your thin sounding system keep your 'unforgiving' speakers and put some tubes in their life! once you hear it you will feel at unison with the sonic of your system.

Research the articles on this site there is so many.

good luck.

asterix

Matt I believe that passive preamp hooked up with right wires is the most INNOCENT peace of an audiogear. If it doesn't sound right with passive than look for the fault elsewhere:

1. As far as I know that your amp overal is a great vintage gear and built for life. There are no extra high-end-attitude features such gold-plated mega-buck binding posts or input jacks that are far-less important than the rest of the structure. I'm sure it can compete with today's produced audio-gear in the price range quite strong. The input sencitivity is good enough even for the low- fixed output source components and/or phono stages.
2. The amplifier you have might not satisfy your speakers since Josephs are power-hungry and you need approximately 250W/ch to make them sound OK. The solution is to get another same amp if the amp is designed to be used as monoblock wich I don't remember. Remember, bridging abilities and tru-monoblock circuit are two different issues and if there is no true monoblock configuration you might end-up with lack of current to deliver(meaning it will clip). Use vertical bi-amp than if your speakers are bi-wirable.
3. The source is probably the main fault and passive preamp can't filter-out all the junk that it can produce(and it does, trust me!) I can't say that Music Hall CD-player is a bad component but it's in the nature of all CD-players or separates to dump bad digital noise onto the wide-bandwidth components. The solution you might implement in that case is to get Musical Fidelity X10 tube buffer placed either between CD-player and pre or between pre and amp thus having both the transperency of resistive volume control and filtering unneccessary digital noise high level freequencies(to be more precise edgy pulses) that make you feel fatigue.
4. I did not listen to RM22 but I run out of the listening room after 10min of listening bigger RM33 with Classe electronics. I fealt much better with Polk speakers at J&R.

marakanetz

Matt, agree with Sogood51.

I've heard passive pre-amps are a little lightweght because they rely on equipment upstream to drive power amp. Your Music Hall CDP may not be up to task. You should check out active pre-amp in your system at home.

In my system, upgrading cables made as much difference in sound as anything, except upgrading the pre-amp.

Regarding tubes: (I have a Jolid JD 100A, which I can't praise enough. A couple paragraphs in manual say…)

"The tubes installed in the CD player will last for at least 20,000 hoursbfore the need for replacement. The reason for the long life is due to the low voltage required to power the tube. In this regard, the tube will not run hot, thus eliminating the main factor for tube wear. In reality, most people change the tubes before they wear out in order to experiment with different sounds.

One often asked question is whether one should keep the unit on 24 hours a day. Our suggestion is to turn the unit on when required and off when not in use. To leave the unit on 24 hours a day will run down the tubes in a four year period of time rather than a ten to fifteen year period of time."

Would say tube wear is similar in a modern tube pre-amp as these are low voltage devices, also, as opposed to higher voltages required in power amps.

As long as replacing tubes yourself once or twice isn't a concern, I wouldn't think modern tube units would be a concern, either.

Good luck!

beavis

Hi Matt, I agree with those who mention tube integrateds. If you want to go seperates, Get a SS pre and a tube amp.
Mfc28412 opinions of the Aronov matches my experience with this integrated. It is very reliable, cheap to retube if retubing is needed. You should not need to retube for several years. I think Aronov has a service center somewhere in the Los Angeles area. This integrated sounds great. When you have a few extra $$ later, no need to rush, there are a couple mods that make the Aronov much better than it already is. Joseph speakers use Cardas wire internally. i have found the joseph is not a speaker that is as demanding of placement as many other speakers. Still you may have a room problem. Keep pulling them out from the back wall. You will also see how great these speakers can image. My Mom has a terrible room. Wood floors, wierd placement, all components sitting inside an old console stereo. She has no right getting the kind of sound she gets.
Think tubes. Think what Jeff Joseph uses at shows for amplification. Quit worring about tube problems. If you should have problems with an amp, SS can be more problems getting fixed than tubes.

brulee

look--sell pre/ and mac---get tube intergrated for about 1200 to 2000 auronov,jolida ext enjoy for one to two years----then up grade---i am running vandy 3sigs with 65 watt aronov intergat---sounds great---and i can sell my interg for what i paid for it----used 4 years and it is still worth what i paid for it---but cost wise tub intergated will make the most improvement at least cost- free if careful shoping

mfc28412

matt, i don't envy you. You have a common problem and are getting all kinds of contradictory advise based on rather limited info you have provided regarding your listening environment. The problems your are describing could be (not necessarily will be) eliminated by proper placement of speakers and listening position and if you have not already done so i suggest you review the available info on this subject. The bottom line is this is free. you don't have to buy anything. Once you have the speakers positioned as best you can to eliminate or minimize the problem then start to expirement with replacing components (on loan - not by purchase), one at a time, starting with the most likely and least expensive possible source of the problem. I would try a different set of cables to the speaker and amp 1st, an active pre-amp next (keep an open mind on a used tube one)and i would not overlook the CD player as a possible source. Take your time!! You'll get it down. Good luck.

newbee

Matt, don't know much about the Mac amp but I do agree with a few of the other posters that a Conrad Johnson pre amp may certainly be a step in the right direction for you.
Used to have a Pv10al and yes, it was warm and rich.
WIMBW, I'm a firm believer that the music has to sound good at the source first for the rest of your components to deliver the goods.
Of course it's not that simple and I don't know the Music Hall player but I feel you'll be pleasantly surprised with a cdp upgrade-and then move on the rest of your components from there.

greh

Why dont you get a good integrated amp. There are plenty of wonderful integrateds and they save you a lot of money over buying separates. If you tell us a price range im sure we could make some suggestions.

lordgorian

Matt, your Mcintosh is a pretty old amp and I don't think the Creek is for you as well. As stne418 stated, a solid state amp with a nice tube pre would be great. You should be able to find something pretty nice for about $1500 for the both. A tube pre will not have the problems or I should say the up keep that a tube amp may have as the tubes have a very long life in the pre as compared to some amps, not a big deal really. You can use any pre for HT pass-through, thats not a big deal. Do another post asking advice on pre+amp and what people see for sale on audiogon and you'll get plenty of help.

sogood51

Owner
Thanks for the feedback so far. I definitely like the sound of my speakers. I heard them on a showroom floor side by side with Vandersteens, and the Josephs blew them away to my ears. I think it is a matter of upstream electronics that are not pleasing to me.

I suppose I would consider tubes. How often do they need replacing in a preamp and in an amp? How much are they to replace? Will most tube pre units keep a small current through them, so you can leave the unit on and warm without killing life of tubes? Do many offer both remote control and HT pass through?

I wish I could just borrow 3 or 4 nice components, both tube and SS, to just try out and see what I like. I'm flying pretty blind here.

matt8268

Matt..it sounds like you want richer sounding electronics.
Perhaps a used Classe CA-200 amp and a used tube preamp from C-j or Audible Illusions will get you there. The SS amp is what you want and the tube preamps are generally easily and cheaply maintained. I am not familiar with your system's components however, hence this is just my guess.
There's other tube like SS amps out there too. Nevertheless, tube like SS amps are not tube amps!

stne418

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