When I first put this system together in 1991-2, I was driving the Martin Logan CLS electrostats with a pair of 140W Audio Research M300 MkII triode monoblocks. The "subs" were a pair of Wilson Puppies driven by a Mark Levinson 23.5 through a Bryston 10B x-over. Later on, I sold the Puppies and the x-over and bought Kinergetics SW 800 subwoofers that were designed to match the CLS's (the "Mini Statement" system.) I never really liked them ;--( I recently moved into an apartment and sold all the Kinergetics stuff and my beloved ARC amps due to space limitations. Began driving the CLS's with the ML 23.5 (very nice) and was resigned to listening to the CLS's with whatever bass they could muster.
When Martin Logan introduced their own subs, I could tell from the physical layout of the three opposing woofers that they had potential, plus I just couldn't imagine Martin Logan putting more sluggish subwoofers on the market;--) I'd been an advocate of "two subwoofers" mostly for easier placement rather than for "stereo bass". But first I thought I'd buy just one ML Depth and see how it sounded. I put it in the middle, crossed over at a mere 35Hz. Incredible! Fast and seamless, just like the Puppies. The omnidirectional woofer arrangement really makes two units unnecessary for good imaging, unless you need more poop.
Four years ago, I bought a new McIntosh MC-275 MkIV in order to drive the stats with tubes again, and it's fantastic! (See my post below.) The Purist cabling and the Depth sub really completed my system to where I'm not making any changes. I have been trying different headphone gear lately -- just for fun!
So now it's summer of 2102, and due to the untimely death of an audiophile friend last year, I had the opportunity to try out some of his very fine equipment, before liquidating it for his family. Only one piece of equipment really 'stuck', and that was an Atma-Sphere MP-3 tube preamp. It is a fully balanced differential Class A design with an all-tube phonostage; 'all-tube' meaning no FET's and no step-up transformers! I'd always wanted to try a tube phonoamp, and I'd always wanted to hear what an MC cartridge (a 'balanced output' device) would sound like when amplified by a phonoamp with balanced inputs. So I got to hear both things at the same time! And now it's time for my incredible Levinson 25s phonoamp and 26s preamp to go to a new audiophile ;~) As a famous Guru said, "Once you get the message, you hang up the phone!"
So for the first time in eight years (2004, when I replaced my ARC SP-14 preamp with the Levinson 25s/26s) my system sounds brand new again! Unfortunately my own body just keeps getting older, so this might be the last time the audio system changes ;~)
Finally, a tube phonostage with balanced inputs; MC cartridge heaven! Replaced Levinson 25s/26s. I never thought that would happen ;~)
Mcintosh MC275 Mk IV -- Shuguang Treasure KT88Z power tubes
Same as the Mk V (the latest 'un-leaded' version) with XLR inputs, detachable PC, and bigger power transformer. Current power tubes are even (slightly) better than my NOS Gold Lions; and only cost $400! The amp itself is a bargain, and its 95w/ch sound is delicious ;-)
HeadRoom Home Balanced Headphone Amp
Drives headphones balanced! 'Crossfeed' feature eliminates 'hole-in-the-middle' effect common with headphone listening. Solid state.
Melos SHA-1
The classic tube headphone amp/preamp from Melos. Better sonics than my HeadRoom unit ;~)
Goldmund Studietto Mk II turntable
It's on a Target wall shelf. Has the JVC quartz-lock motor, Goldmund cones, van den Hul zirconium spindle oil. Replaced the springs with Pandafeet sorbothane isolators -- no resonance, no noise, great bass, direct drive rules!!
SME Series V tonearm
Bought in 1990. Factory serviced in 2004 and installed new van den Hul MC-150S internal silver wiring.
Transfiguration Temper W MC cartridge
0.5mV output, new double ring magnet (yokeless) design. Stunning fit 'n finish. Now broken after 150 hours. It produces an amazing black background against a sparkling top to bottom neutrality, with great transient response and holographic imaging.
Purist Audio Venustas Phono interconnect
It's totally to die for! -- Increases the sonic value of your cartridge by $5000.
Wadia WT-2000 PS-2 CD transport
Wadia's Esoteric Transport w/ the upgraded VRDS heavy-duty Teac platter.
Aural Symphonics Optimism V.2 ST glass optical cable
If you don't have AT&T inputs/outputs on your digital gear necessary for using this glass digital datalink, then you're missing an unsurpassed musical experience from your CDs!
Wadia 27 DAC
Sounds great w/ the AS Optimism 2 glass cable. May consider GNSC mods later on.
Nakamichi CR-7A audiophile cassette
Basically, a Dragon that doesn't reverse (Thank God!) Bought it new with mics and mixer yet!! Analog rules!!
McIntosh MR65B stereo FM tube tuner
Bought it (very) used in 2007 and had it refurbished. Total $700, more than 2X 1962 retail! Amazing sound.
Martin Logan CLS IIz full range electrostat
Owned these starting in 1991 (as CLS II's) Installed new panels 3/11 and they sound better than ever! The Sound Anchor stands improve both the bass (cleaner) and the mid/highs (transient response.) What a difference!
Sound Anchor CLS speaker stand
They get the CLS's off the floor for better staging and keep the panels from rocking, improving the transients (even when I thought they couldn't get any better!)
Martin Logan Depth subwoofer
Better transient response (faster) than the (larger) Descent due to it's smaller, lighter woofers. See my remarks below.
Purist Audio Venustas RCA and XLR interconnects
RCA (1.5m) connects phono preamp to preamp. XLR (8m - 25 feet) connects preamp to amp.
Straightwire Maestro RCA
An 8m pair preamp to subwoofer.
Purist Audio Venustas 2.5m speaker cables
My last speaker cables!
PAD Venustas/Dominus, Aural Thrills and Audio Metallurgy power cords
Purist for the amp and CDT, other stuff elsewhere.
ExactPower EP-15A / SP-15A power units
The EP is a power regenerator. It supplies the amp, sub, speakers, and the SP balanced power unit. The SP supplies the source devices.
Studiotech Performance Series shelf systems
One of audio's best bangs. Price includes shipping. Easy to assemble, great looking and solid!
Caught your post and other threads regarding tubes. What are the sonic differences when you use the Gold Lion KT88 and NOS Telefunkens?
12-29-07: Nsgarch My (moderate priced) tube recommendation would be a quad of the new reissue Gold Lion KT88 (about $200) and some NOS Telefunkens for the 12AX7's and 12AT7's. If you'll send me your email address, I'll give you more details when I have some time.
Hey nice! I always liked your system. Looks good. I agree with your asessment of using the smaller, faster sub with the panels. I found a Zu sub works great with my Quads.
Gotta love the Mc275 for your CLS. Great job. I bet it all sounds great. Congrats and happy listening till the ears or lights go dim ;-)
Once stats get in your blood, nothing else, no matter how fine, seems to "do it." It's a similar situation with tube amps and stats: once you hear stats with good tube amplification, the magic is unmistakable.
So, I've been jones-ing for a stereo tube amp (no room for monoblocks anymore) with balanced inputs, 100W/ch, great specs, blah, blah, for under $3000 used. After much research, I discovered there's a new version of the venerable Mcintosh MC275, the Mk IV. Actually, a Mk V is in the works (the only difference is it has real binding posts ;--)
I bought a new Mk IV from an Agon member in Canada. It's spec'd at 75W/ch but the Mk IV actually produces 95W/ch. So I hooked it up, and it sounded like CRAP! Grainy and bass-heavy. That was 50 hours ago (brand new tubes I guess). Now I'm in sonic nirvana again.
If you have a large room, you can run two of them in parallel (mono) configuration for 150W/ch, but you won't need to biamp, even if you have Logan hybrids with woofers. The amp has a healthy damping factor of 14 and delivers outstanding bass. This is partly due to Mcintosh's patented "Unity Gain" circuit which draws power from the plate AND the cathode, (and of course requires the use of their legendary bifilar-wound output transformers -- two primary windings instead of one). Biasing not required with the Unity Gain circuit design, and they produce very little heat for a tube amp.
I can't recommend this amp highly enough for driving electrostats. If you buy a new one, let the tubes break in for 50 hours and you'll never look back. It's delicious.
Greg -- verrry funny! The real problem will be what to do with my 23.5 if I like the Mac. It's such a wonderful amp I just can't bear the thought of selling it. Maybe I can find someone to lease it!? .
Rouvin-"I do miss these speakers and wonder about trying again."
Of course I highly reccomend M/L CLS! IMO there is nothing like a full range electrostatic. None of the other 'stats are as emotional involving as the CLS. Unless you can afford an all out assault it is difficult to do better than this speaker.
"was the spitting and arcing addressed at all by the added rigidity and mass of the Soundanchor stands and/or Depth subwoofer?" When I had the problem I assumed it was humidity related because my basement was like a tropical rain forest during the summer. It was no problem when I had the speakers upstairs. The problem was solved when M/L replaced the panels. If you buy the CLS, you are probably going to have to replace the panels. IME most sell because the panels are worn out and they do not want to pay for new ones. The new panels are user replaceble. Just pop out the old ones and put the new ones in($1K). I also sugest you have the transfomrers refurbished($90) . Replace the power cord. Consider installing Edison Price music post($60.00 User installed w/o soldering.) I had mine done when while my transformers were at the factory.)If you are so inclined M/L use to tell people how to convert thier CLS xformers from a two back to a one. It's your call. You should decide all this before have them refurbished. I think it is a no brainer. If you don't have the latest(last couple of years) panels get them right away. I simply have had no arcing, spitting or slapping. If you play 'em loud enough you can probably make them slap(or what I call bottom out). It is not a problem at normal listening levels.
I took Neils' advice on the stands. While I have some mixed emotions, I dont think I'll ever go back. The speakers are not as pretty and the are much more imposing. Now if I could muster the courage to drill holes in them and install the back braces.
"(apprpox. 80 Hz arced dependably; hell on well mic'd acoustic bass). " I never had this problem. I crossover @ 100hz to my janis sub. I frequenlty listen w/o the subs and still do not experience that problem.
Neil, I'm not an expert any more. I am a historian.
I never experienced spitting or arcing or slapping with my CLSs in the 16 years I've had them. I did have to replace the panels once about 12 years ago when the little "damper patches" of mylar in the bass sections of the panel started to fall off -- due to a faulty batch of adhesive according to Jim Power. ML only charged me shipping one way and took the old panels back at their expense.
I've driven them with both ARC and Levinson amps, and used all kinds of sources, sometimes at loud, but not ear-shattering levels.
The effect of putting them on the Sound Anchor stands was two-fold: Getting them off the floor eliminated a floor reflection, and got the midrange part of the panel in a better relation to my ear when seated or standing. The result was clearer mids and especially bass, although the bass level dropped a bit, probably due to lack of floor bounce. The second result was that the back braces provided by the stands eliminated the slightest sway (front to back) of the panels, even at the top. This brought out the full capability of electrostatic transient response that is still unmatched by any other kind of driver.
Greg is the authority on the electronics, so he would know if maybe they had something to do with the arcing, etc. .
This looks and probably sounds wonderful, but I have a few questions about the effects of this from my expereince with the CLS Z and other ML models.
I'm not sure if this is better addressed to Gregadd or Nsgarch, but was the spitting and arcing addressed at all by the added rigidity and mass of the Soundanchor stands and/or Depth subwoofer? S & A was more frequency dependent with my CLS Z's than temperature or humidity dependent(apprpox. 80 Hz arced dependably; hell on well mic'd acoustic bass). When this was happening, I discussed this with at length with Jim Power of ML who was unable to resolve the problem, but certainly agree that their level of customer support at all levels was tremendous.
What about panel slap? I had thought that this was entirely a design problem until I found it to be tube dependent via tube rolling with some recordings with my Quest Z's. For the curious on this, recording dependent panel slapping with my personal favorite tube for my Modwright Platinum level mods on Sony 999, Sylvania GB 5687, but not with presently used Amperex 7199; happens with 1st track of Pat Martino's CD, Remember. It has never happened with anything on the turntable.
I do miss these speakers and wonder about trying again.
I would not call my transformers "original". The originals were silver with a flap over the rear. That is the version I demo'ed in the store when I made my original purchase of CLS one's circa 1985. M/L had already begun what I term the emasculation of the CLS to make them less finicky. IMO there is a series of "II" transformers you want to stay away from. Unfortunately I have no idea what serial numbers they are. IIZ owners are safe. Even worse it appears that M/L no longers sells or upgrades the transformers. Repairs are available. I beleive the panels have steadily improved. Most important is a superior coating for the panel. My orignals spit and arced as the humidity varied. It seemed almost impossible to get a pair that played at the same volume. M/L legndary product support was evidenced by the fact that they replaced parts at no cost at the slightest complaint.
Joseph, thanks for the Goldmund news!! Where on earth did you run across this website -- I'm burning with curiosity?
As for the JVC motor, I understand that it's still available, in case you ever need repairs!! Goldmund originally used Pabst motors in their Studio and Studietto TTs, but most of them are dead and unrepairable. They switched to the JVCs later in production, which raised those TTs to another level. The JVC has a very quiet spindle bearing (I use the van den Hul spindle oil in mine) and the quartz-lock speed control is unshakeable. I think if analog records continue their revival, we may see audiophile DD turntables returning. I wonder if the new Goldmund Ref. will be DD (the original Refs. were belt drive.)
Bill, I've not heard anything about panel updates for the original CLSs. There have been rumors about a "full-range" electrostatic speaker (i.e. - no woofers) using the automated panel construction techniques developed for the new Summit. There's been a lot of clamoring for such a speaker over the last few years, but I fear the actual market may be too small for ML to respond with such a product. It would be nice though.
There originally was a change in the "panel design" for the CLS between the original CLS and the later model CLSs. I believe Gregadd has the original electronics units driving the later panels, which he likes very much. .
has MARTIN LOGAN come out with the new panel design that is used on their current speaker line for your CLS'S ?? i believe they have offered the new panel design for older speakers with the older designed panels. it would be intersting how much of a improvement it would make with the full range CLS'S if offered.
I read your component list with care and was pleased to find that within my modest system we share one thing in common your Goldmund TT is using the JVC Quartz Lock Motor !
Well so does my JVC QL Y66F Direct Drive from 85
Thanks for your kind words, but i don't think I'll be sitting still much longer.
Whart, yes my system is one of those occasional masterpieces of synergy, most of it I will boast, the result of long term planning and unwavering vision, and a certain amount of it just due to happy accidents. Due to the 12 ft width of my room, I listen nearfield for the best realism, but I can still close my eyes and the speakers just disappear.
The primary system groups: Wadia, Levinson, Martin Logan, and Purist cabling, all sort of evolved and morphed into place over a period of 16 years of learning, trying, understanding things more profoundly -- you know the drill. Luckily, I had the discipline and vision (if not exactly knowing the "whys and wherefores" at first,) to realize when some piece of hardware was not "in harmony" with everything else.
Your "zeroing in" on the sub placement is impressive, especially considering it isn't that clear in the picture. It looks like a total mistake I know, and probably would be with any other sub, but the ML design of three opposing woofers, makes this sub completely and utterly vibration free! It does sit on a double thick MDF shelf, but I don't even have it on spikes. The rack IS on spikes into a concrete floor, the amp is on vibrapods, and the ExactPower regenerator is transformerless, so makes no waves. The whole shebang is solid as a rock (thank God!)
Yes, I could have removed the bottom rack shelf and just set the sub on the floor, but I realy wanted it up a bit closer to the speakers (on their stands) and off the carpeting, plus there are cables that have to run right under where the sub is located, so it really helps to have it elevated. Let me also put in a plug here for Studiotech equipment stands. One of the best bangs for the buck in audioland. .
Nsgarch- I'll bet (with no risk) that your system sounds like life itself on jazz and acoustic rock- the open quality of the 'stats, plus the plumb the depths foundation added thru woofering. My own experience has, sadly, been less than optimal in mixing wooferinos with my various Quads. I also agree that getting the stats up off the ground makes a world of difference. Only question that comes to mind is the effect of the woofer being placed on an equipment stand containing other electronic components- we work like hell to isolate components from all sorts of acoustic, mechanical and self-generated vibrations- have you tried a different arrangement of equipment that doesn't change the relative placement of the woof to the panels?
System edited: Heres a picture of the current system to compare with the previous setup. The stats have been mounted on Sound Anchor stands -- a LONG overdue improvement. The Depth subwoofer (in the center) has been rotated 120 degrees thus bringing the controls conveniently toward the front without changing the orientation of the 3-woofer arrangement (i.e. one woofer still points forward, and two still point backward.)
I'm a member of the MLOC and have my system listed there also. I check the site every two or three months, but real news and interesting information has usually been covered here or on AA already ;--)
Cwlondon: (and everybody else) I apologize for not posting some current pics. Right now it's 102 in Tucson (yesterday hit 110!) so that project will have to wait!!
I agree w/ Greg that your components, even your SCD-1, may not be the problem, and the 23.5 is one of the absolute best amps for Maggies -- all the muscle of Bryston but as close to tubes as SS ever gets. I gave a pair of Tympani 1-Ds to a friend which he runs, with a 23.5 and they sound great. Unfortunately, he got depressed, strung out, and decided to get into vintage equipment (yuk!) so they're folded up in the corner!!
If the sound is too hot, it has got to be room, cabling, or CD playback (is the sound from your tuner hot?) Also, I think the IV-As are bi-wireable/bi-ampable (if they are, you should at least bi-wire them) My friend Mike has a really nice pair of Purist Musaeus biwire speaker cables about 2 or 2.5 meters he's not using, if you're interested I'll ask him if he wants to sell them (they'd be around $350 or $400 I think)
Cwlondon-If I may comment? Sounds as though you need a compassionate dealer. My expereince is that although they are technically correct and well built machines the Sonys tend to exhibit the characteristics you describe. ARC SP11 is lean but not harsh.I have never heard anyone describe the magnepans as you describe. I suggest you try to borrow components. See if you could borrow a tubed bassed cd player. Substitute components until you find the culprit. If that does not work you may have to substitute two components at once. Tubes may the way to go. Try the moscode 401hr.
I have never owned CLS's but always wanted to try them with the Kinergetics woofers and came close to buying that system years ago. So it is very interesting (and a relief!) to hear you were unhappy with them and prefer the Depth.
One question - you mentioned no harsh, glare or grainy sound. This to me is the holy grail of high end audio, very difficult to achieve, and I am particularly impressed since your floor appears to be hard (tile?) and I would imagine very reflective.
I am suffering from a hard, reflective and occasionally fatiguing sound on all but the best recordings. I have Tympani IV a's (more forgiving) and also a 23.5. So maybe the culprit is my ARC SP11 or Sony SCD-1?
I took your recommendation for the ML depth seriously. However when the Janis system became available I could not resist. It may take me a while to adjust it, but it is a beast. PICTURES WILL BE POSTED THIS FALL!
Greg, thanks for the kind remarks. No the CLSs have the standard light oak finish, however after years of re-oiling with my favorite Flecto -- "Natural Oil and Sealer" they've taken on a sort of cherry-ish tone. I really must get some up to date photos though ;--(
This is a HIGHLY resolving system, though not harsh, glarey, or grainey. It has no trace of SS hardness and at the same time no tube euphonia. It just IS. The new Depth subwoofer is perfect (fast) for the CLSs and can only be noticed if it's suddenly turned off.
UPDATE: Just replaced my original Wadia 64.4x DAC with a Wadia 27. WOW! However, I'll keep the WT 2000 transport -- they just don't make 'em like that anymore ;--)
