As I have posted elsewhere, I currently own a Nagra CDP and an Audio Research CD7. Both are excellent CD players, the Nagra is more detailed and stereoscopic, the Audio Research is more musical and has a larger soundstage. Choice will depend on individual preferences and preamplifier – when using the Audio Research ref3 I prefer the CD7, with a Conrad Johnson ACT2 the Nagra is my choice.
I agree with Elberoth2 words – both CD players took more than 500 hours before sounding their best. Before owning the CDP I had a CDC – the day I replaced my fully broken in CDC with a never played CDP was a disaster!

microstrip February 26, 2008 21:44

Arthur,

I will post my impressions in Reference DACs thread - it will be a longer writeup, which just takes time to write.

In short, MBL have had a certain forwardnes in the upper midrange/lower treble, which I did not notice at first listening, but which made me sell the player eventually.

CD-7 sounds more natural, has much better resolution (I'm talking about HF-air, delicacy and extension here) and better portrayal of space - esp. soundstage depth.

MBL have had a better build quality though.

elberoth2 February 21, 2008 23:07

System edited: ARC Reference CD-7 replaced MBL1531 CDP in my system. It was a long process, during past 2 months I auditioned over a dozen different players in the 8k-32k range, but in the end it was a journey worth taking. One piece of advice though - NEVER/EVER listen to ARC before 400h ! Early in the break in process, the player sounds muddy, diffused and grainy. I almost gave up on him waiting for him to take off. But when it finally did - Holly Jesus ! Broken in it sounds very open, fast, and accurate. The soundstage depth and rendition of space is just amazing ! Listening to the attack and decay of piano notes is simply a jaw dropping expirience. I have never heard a piano sounding more real.

elberoth2 February 21, 2008 22:59

Any initial thoughts on the ARC ref7? Differences with your MBL?

arthursmuck February 13, 2008 04:06

Elberoth2, here a review you should check out. It compares the Wadia 861SE with the Esoteric X-01 and Emmlabs CDSA-SE. When I read this it pretty much spot on with my personal experience.

http://www.dagogo.com/EMMLabsCDSA.html

Regards
Henry

mtkhl567 February 08, 2008 13:30

Not yet. I'm auditioning ARC Ref 7 right now.

elberoth2 February 02, 2008 00:01

Elberoth2

Did you have chance to hear DP-700?

mert February 01, 2008 07:46

Mert, you are right about the DAC's... its per channel. But the ratio is the same, and the sonic difference between the DP-77 and the DP-78 was slightly better at best on the Accuphase house sound. That wasn't just my ears but approx. 120 combined years worth of other audiophile listening experience next to me at the same time. And believe me when I say that we re-listened several audiophile tracks several times to agree on what differences, if any, we heard. Again, you may be right, I don't claim to have golden ears, that's why I also rely on others that are more experienced to teach me how and what to listen for. Its been a fun, but sometimes tricky, road to travel.

One of my original justifications for getting the Accuphase was German audiphile magazine Stereo ratings were very favorable ... what a mistake that was. You have to get your own listening experience going on high-end gear.

But to each his own way of evaluating what's best and making a purchase decision!

Dgad, I've never even had my CDSA warming up for a full day ... maybe worth trying. Though my appetite for digital is shrinking by the day, the more I listen to vinyl ...

mtkhl567 January 30, 2008 20:53

Just a note on the EMM. During its prolonged breakin the sound changes quite dramatically. It does need warm up to sound its best. About a day for the best sound. It sounds a little "slow" or laid back when cold. Just my personal perspective. I have heard some of the older Accuphase and was not so impressed. When it comes to CD/SACD I think there should be a financial limit. There is always something "significantly" better down the road. A tough technology to keep up with.

dgad January 29, 2008 01:43

Mtkhl567

you are wellcome. I agree with you but only %75 out of 100 what you said. Dp-78 has six paralel 1955 analogue devices for each channel, all together 12.(r+l)DP-77 has 8 in total(4+4) The difference is subjective. The ability of understanding the sonic difference of various gear is not given by god. Only you may improve it gear after gear, cable after cable.........maybe you need more time than regular audiophile who knows?

Regards

mert January 28, 2008 22:26

Thanks Mert for your perspective. I have no intentions to sell my CDSA in Belgium. As a matter of fact there has not been one offered second hand in Belgium. The Benelux importer just started a few months ago with the CDSA, retail EUR 11000! There's one on sale from the UK -> EUR 7800 asking...

As for Accuphase being hot in Europe, good for Accuphase, their products are very good, just IMHO not the best (not heard their DP800/DC801 though). The CDSA sounded better to my ears than the DP100/DC101 combo, which I though at first sounded very good. I sold my DP-77 to a Danish audiophile for $4000 last year. I count myself lucky as it didn't read some of my SACDs, and I got it as a demo for $5000 the year before! It retailed in the US for $8500 before the DP-78 took over at $10000 with 3 instead of 2 DAC's on each channel. Still I couldn't hear the difference in my system with my ears. Somebody else could very well differ in their opinion from mine.

In any case for those people you refer to in your last sentence I say: go find yourselfs another hobby. If you look at your system and think every time about how expensive it is, then you are probably not listening to the music!

mtkhl567 January 28, 2008 16:36

Mtkhl567

Don't be too much self-confident about your Emm labs players. As you know best gear which bring most when you sell or trade. Yours retails 10.000 usd, consider yourself very lucky if you can sell it for 3500 euros in Belgium market. However, any Accuphase product means hot cash product here in Europe. (germany especialy, Elberoth knows better how second hand works in europe.) Sometimes sonics are nothing, but CASH is everything.(don't take personly but you will be very angry when you sell your emm gear and don't want to remember how good it used sound.....)

mert January 28, 2008 12:26

At that level you owe it to yourself to check everything within your budget range . . . and in your own system !!!

It's just too damn expensive changing a CDP every other year !!! In that regard vinyl is easier IMHO !!!

mtkhl567 January 28, 2008 06:52

Thanks for your comments guys.

I haven't bought the Accuphase DP-78 yet. It is my favourite right now, but I still have several CDPs left on my "must audition list". Among them, the latest and more expensive Accuphase DP-700, which I have already "secured" for auditioning in two weeks time (my dealer just got his first unit shipped, and there is literally the line od ppl waiting to listen to this player).

Today, I just brought home the Krell Evo 505 SACD player, which Branimir rated so highly in another thread. Next week I should finally get the ARC Ref 7 for audition as well, which many ppl recomended to me as a natural partner for my Ref 3/Ref 110 combination.

Sounds like I will have to check the CDSA as well !

Stay tuned.

elberoth2 January 26, 2008 17:34

Elberoth2, I have absolutely no clue about what below-average-above average PRAT means, or how to hear that. Sounds like if PRAT if wrong, the whole musical experience doesn't sound good at all! If my Emm has below average PRAT, it still beats ALL of the Accuphase CDPs that I owned and auditioned before (my conclusion together with the handful of audiophiles that were with me at the time, including an Accuphase dealer!). That's the only reason I changed from Accuphase to Emmlabs... because it was so blatantly obviously superior. More micro detail, increased and more clearly defined soundstage, increased realism and immediacy. If Meitner did use the Mediatek chipset to turn it into his own MDAT, it works beautifully.

My 2 cts worth of experience, to each his own obviously. I'd say, bring it over, I'd love to re-check my ears . . . maybe I was mistaken!

mtkhl567 January 26, 2008 10:08

Adam,

So...where does this leave you (now that you joined the Acuphase Club) in the quest of finding the perferect loudspeaker to create the European Experience?

LaPierre

lapierre January 26, 2008 04:00

Mtkhl567 - this is because CDSA is not a "true" SACD player. You may not know, but the mediatec solution used in the CDSA doesn't have the DSD output. ALL signals, be it RBCD or SACD are output from the mediatec chipset as 88.2kHz PCM and then upsampled to 2xDSD (5.6MHz).

PRAT - Pace, Rythm And Timing.

Mert - yeah, you can call it quite a discovery. I have heard the other (older) Accuphase players before, but none of them impressed me as much as the DP-78. But I'm not stopping there - next week I should have the DP-700 on demo. I can borrow the DP-800/801 as well (a friend living nearby owns one) but I'm not sure If I want to spend that much money on a CDP right now.

elberoth2 January 24, 2008 00:12

Elberoth wellcome to Acuphase Club! As usual I am always one step ahead! I have discovered the beauty of Accuphase players in 2005. If finances allow buy dp-78 and new dc-801 converter.(use dp-78 via Hs-link)I tell you one thing about your setup: if you had my speakers plus all power conditioning and cables I currently use, you may catch sonic heaven with your Ref 110, Ref 3. Don't you agree?

mert January 23, 2008 21:00

Elberoth2, funny you should mention that, I think RBCD playback on the Emm often exceeds that of SACD. In the SE upgrade Ed Meitner paid particular attention to increasing the playback quality of RBCDs, hence the upsampling to 5.6 Mhz of CDs too.

Maybe its because I have many more fantastic sounding Gold CDs, XRCDs, HDCDs, K2HD CDs than SACDs (and I have about 200 SACDs). Bass impact and weight? No problem in my system with the Dart's & MM3s.

Maybe a silly question, but what does PRAT stand for?

mtkhl567 January 23, 2008 20:25

I guess there is no single best. It all goes down to the personal taste. You have chosen EMM CDSA over Accuphase. Stan (Talon4) sold his CDSA and bought Wadia. A close friend of mine get rid of his Wadia, and bought ... Accuphase, LOL.

The problem I have with EMM (apart from the build quality you rightly mentioned) was relative lack of bass impact weight and below avg PRAT. Ofc we are talking about RBCD mode - in SACD mode, EMM wins hands down.

elberoth2 January 22, 2008 23:52

When I purchased my first good CDP I auditioned all the Accuphase CDPs: DP57, DP77, DP78 and DP100/DC101 and I chose the DP-77 because I got a very good deal on it, knowing it would be the weakest part of my system. The only improvement of the DP-78 over the DP-77 is the slightly improved D/A converter. My dealer said that was a small change, and frankly I didn't hear the difference as I did compared to the DP100/DC101. Now Ed Meitner of Emmlabs is MR SACD/DSD himself as he was the pioneer of SACD for Sony back in the beginning of this hi rez format. The best sound studio's work with Meitner gear. The Emmlabs D/A conversion technology is the best available today, upsampling CD and SACD to to 5.6 Mhz. Maybe 32 bit technology is next best, depending on manufacturer, and its relatively new. But the sound is second-to-none. I'll bet you that if you were to connect the DP-78 and compare it to the Emmlabs, the Emmlabs would win handsdown on sonic qualities. The two areas of significant improvement over Accuphase that I noted were the much higher resolution (more microdetail) and wider, deeper, higher and better defined soundstage. Ofcourse back then I was listening through the ML32/33H and SF Stradivaries connected by NO Valhalla, all of which were not as good components versus what I have today...

But if you like built quality over sound, nothing beats Esoteric P-01/D-01 or P-03/D-03, bar the NAIM CD 555. Accuphase is up there too. And yes, the built quality of the Emmlabs is not its strongest point, to say the least!

Good luck!

mtkhl567 January 22, 2008 20:00

Mtkhl567 - the sound of Accuphase DP-78 was a surprise for me as well. I have never really considered Accuphase products before. From what I was told, DP-78 represents a huge step forward over the previous DP-77. From the build quality point of view there, is simply no contest - Accuphase stuff is build like a swiss watch.

The particular EMM combo I tried was borrowed from a friend of mine. Iw was well run in, since it was 6 months old. It was sounding pretty good on its own right - I just happen to like the DP-78 more.

elberoth2 January 22, 2008 17:59

I don't understand your preference for the Accuphase, I had the DP-77 and although a great player (didn't read some SACDs though) it was blown away by my current one box Emmlabs. You need to ensure that you audition fully broken in units, and with your personal reference music. Powercords and interconnects also paly a role here.

Also try the Spectral if you get the chance, did you consider the Metronome Kalista or any of the good Esoteric and/or DCS stuff?

None of the above can compete for sheer palpability with my GPA/Dynavector vinyl rig...

Good luck and drop me a note if you want to drop by for the MM3s.

mtkhl567 January 22, 2008 08:12

Lapierre,

Thanks for your tip. Your timing is spot on, since I just sold the MBL player and I'm again in a "CD search" mode, LOL.

Recently I have auditioned Accuphase DP-500, Accuphase DP-78, EMM DCC2 se / CDSE se and the $32k Naim CD555, but none of them made me entirely happy (maybe except for Naim - but the $$$).

My current favourite is Accuphase DP-78, but I have yet to audition the new Accuphase DP-700, Wadia 581 SE, MBL 1511A/1521F combo and obviously, the ARC Ref-7.

elberoth2 January 22, 2008 07:53

Interesting Adam,

This past summer I had a similar journey for CD players. I listened to Audio Aero line, Estoeric X-03SE, Ayre CX-7e CD player(which is heck of a player for the price), and ended up purchasing emmLabs CDSA SE CD/SACD Player. I was looking for better soundstage and the ability to separate musical instruments along with higher resolution in 3-D. One important item to me in product selection besides great sound is innovation like in the areas of(transport, DAC, etc.)

Looking at upgrading my pre-amp(MC C46) to either (AR Ref-3, Aesthetix Callisto Mk II , or MC C1000.)

lapierre January 22, 2008 02:30