VAC & VSA - 2-Channel Smileage, PMD

by fplanner2010 on All Out Assault

Description

This system, with 60 comments, is already up under my old Audiogon moniker - Fplanner2000. I've had to duplicate it since they wouldn't let me attach it to my new moniker - fplanner2010.

I started this hobby about 8 years ago and have subsequently gone a bit nuts turning my living room into a pretty nice 2-channel and HT setup. When I first posted this system on 10-4-06, it didn't have very much of what is currently there now. (Actually, all that remains are the Gray conditioner, the sub and Sunfire amp!!)

I have done all the upgrades I had been contemplating 3 years ago (plus a number of others for various reasons), and the dogs have been surprisingly cooperative in not taking out any tubes. With the latest addition of the APL Super-DAC prototype, I am pretty much exactly where I had hoped to be when I started this 8 years ago. FINALLY!!

I'd like to thank all my friends and acquaintances here on Audiogon for your help and guidance along the way. I never would have gotten this far this quickly without your help, suggestions and shared wisdom. I am totally appreciative.

I don't anticipate any more changes anytime real soon, but in this hobby, you really NEVER KNOW!! I'm going to CES in 3 weeks, so we'll see what happens. I'm definitely interested in exploring computer integration and would love to have my 1000+ CDs on a big hard-drive, but we'll see....

Thanks again and your comments are welcome.
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Components Toggle details

    • Valve Amplification Company VAC Statement 450 Monoblocks
    WOW. Not broken in yet
    • Valve Amplification Company Signature IIa Preamp
    Added 7308's 2/12 replacing noisy 6dj8's - incredible soundstage and sonic extension. Unbelievable!!
    • Esoteric/APL 32-bit NWO-M Transport/DAC
    SOTA digital. 20 2nd generation 32-bit AKM DACs/side, double tube Class-A output stage, 96/211 upsampler, etc.
    • Von Schweikert Audio VR-7SE w/Mk 2 upgrade
    Total internal re-wire w/Delphi wire, new mid-range drivers and V-Cap bypass mods to mids, tweets and super-tweets.
    • Pro ELITE 70 inch LCD w/full Local Dimming
    Product of a 2.5 yr project between Pioneer and Sharp engineers to build the BEST in the world w/o economic constraints. Came out several months ago in 60" and 70"; 2 yr 3 mo. factory wty. Expensive but amazing so far. Goes FAR beyond Sony XBR, my prior reference, in many noticeable areas.
    • Oppo BDP-95
    Video processing to 3D plus all latest Audio Codecs
    • Integra DHC-80.2 HD Processor
    All the latest codecs for movies.
    • Velodyne DD-15+ Subwoofer
    A nice upgrade from the prior DD-15
    • Synergistic Research TESLA Reference Subwoofer cables(2)
    Best I've ever had on my sub.
    • Synergistic Research Galileo Speaker Cells
    Speaker tweeker - really opens up the speakers for an even more organic and visceral "you are there" presentation. A pleasant surprise.
    • Synergistic Research Element Series C-T-S ics
    Copper-Tungsten-Silver 1m rca ICs between APL and preamp. Increased clarity, deeper and wider soundstage, better imaging and focus.
    • Synergistic Research Apex Tesla ICs & bi-wire Spkr cable
    A revelation for my system
    • Synergistic Research Precision Reference XLR ICs
    Perfect between Preamp and amps. Tried pure silver, but lost the body of the Prec Ref.
    • Synergistic Research 3 Hologram A and 2 Hologram D PCs
    Improved dynamics and imaging. A's on both amps and preamp.
    • Synergistic Research D-3 Digital IC cable
    Best digital cable from Transport to DAC I have found at any price.
    • Acrolink Mexcel Digital BNC
    Great digital cable for the clock - made for Esoteric.
    • Legacy Audio Focus 20/20 rear speakers
    Full range and great for movies
    • Legacy Audio Silver Screen Center speaker
    Blends really well with the VSA fronts
    • Magnum Dynalab MD-108T Triode tuner
    Best tuner I've found. Replaced a Sansui modded 9900, which I still have.
    • Finite Elemente Cerapucs under UX-1 & Preamp
    Tightens up the presentation.
    • Digital Systems Ultrabit Platinum Disc Treatment
    The best I've found to help my CDs sound their best and remove scratches.
    • Richard Gray 400s AC filter
    Auxiliary outlets
    • Dedicated 20 amp lines
    One of my best investments
    • Billy Bags Pro Rack
    6 3/4" cracked glass shelves
    • Billy Bags Pro modified Component Center
    Modified by Billy Bags

Comments 156

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THANKS, already chatting with both Ian and Rachel.

Yes the TV even with that cord is very nice, I noticed on my other pce changing the power cord did make a positive difference and it's just a shame one can't do such on this one.

Did you get yours calibrated as of yet? I have heard from others if properly done very positive results. I will be once I put some hours in on mine.

I was also shocked with the plastic backer when my other unit is all metal, as you are aware not an inexpensive unit and just wonder why that's all.

K-01 is breaking-in nicely, so far prefer it over any other single units I have had. A AMR 77.1 is sitting at the door awaiting to be shipped to it's new owner along with a DCS Puccini.

Still burning in my Magnum Dynalab 109T, gorgeous looking pce but sounding a little thin and isn't offering the same body nor bass compared to my MR78 W/Modafferi Modifications which is just a stunning tuner! Larry said 50+ hours and I might have 30 on it now so time will tell.

With your 108T can you run either rca or balanced IC'S? What are you using, have you ever done any comparision, if so what were the results.

What power cord do you use, again if you have what were the results.

dev

Owner
Yes, totally aware of the change. I bought a pair of backup tubes that are the psvane version. I would get those - they are "supposed" to be even better - you won't know until you put them into your system. I think the people at GF will put your mind at ease. Rachel (her real name is Chinese and pretty un-pronounceable - I tried)was very helpful.

If you have the same TV, you will discover that even with the crappy power cord, the pictures are amazing, especially HD and 3-D!! I love mine, especially for sports and movies.

fplanner2010

Hi Fplanner,

Thanks, I'm sure your set-up sounds absolutely marvelous but you are missing out big time not using vinyl as a source option :)

I picked up last week same 70" TV as you, replaced my Pioneer ELITE® KURO Flat Panel HDTV PRO-150 FD 60 inch. Kinda shocked with the crappy power cord cable that is attached and not allowing one to install their own as per my other unit, never mind not being all that long. Happy to have the larger screen back because I went from a Elite 710 64" down to the 60" because nothing larger was available at the time but now finally back up to this one.

Tubes in pre-amp, put them in recently and still allowing to burn in and then will evaluate.

I was just checking out these amps tubes to place an order and found the following information, were you aware of this.

Thoughts .....

From GF web site:

Notice:

We have officially discontinued this Treasure CV181-Z model and have replaced it with the newer better MKII version called ‘Psvane CV181-T‘. Please visit under Psvane T-Series vacuum tubes category for details on Psvane CV181-T tubes.

dev

Owner
Hi Dev-
Good to hear from you. My sound is probably not as good as yours, but its getting there!!

Yes I got 4 for each from Grant Fidelity and had used them in my 300.1s. I got the other 2 from a frequent Black Treasure seller here on A'gon - trella I believe is his name. As far as placement, the furthest left as you face the amp is the key tube, according to Brent at VAC. It biases the 4 others and is the input tube to the 4 others, which are drivers.

I knew something was missing, just couldn't put my finger on it - it was the Treasures!! They are making a big difference in my system - not sure what they might do for yours. Mine were matched so I can't say whether there would be a difference here if they weren't matched. Common sense would say maybe, but I don't really know.

Let me know what happens when you get the Treasures. Did you ever get the preamp tubes we talked about? What was the result?

fplanner2010

Owner
Aw, shucks...... thanks again. You will have the chance to hear it if you go to the Rocky Mtn Audiofest in October - I live 15 minutes from the event.

fplanner2010

I will say, reflecting on your system...it has truly ascended the peaks of greatness. VR7 modded, VAC Statements, the APL NWO-M...nicer and nicer by leaps and bounds!

lloydelee21

Okay now you have me intriqued to the point having to try these tubes in my amps also, placing an order should I be concerned in matched?

There are 5 as you know per amp.

I was skimming threw to see if you had mentioned if you got these from GF, did you? If not from who?

Great to read you are enjoying your new amps, the combo with the pre is just marvelous :)

I know I'm very happy indeed.

dev

Owner
Thanks Lloyd - I'm pretty happy :-).

fplanner2010

Great news!!! Congrats and enjoy!!!

lloydelee21

Owner
Finally put the Black Treasures into the front 5 slots of each amp. I should have done this weeks ago. Pretty dramatic change for the better - more bass extension, sweeter mid-range and more extended highs. Very noticeably better - so much so that I will probably stop the overnight breakin after tonite. So far I've got about 350 hours on the new amps/speakers.

The Statements drive the Treasures to much higher performance levels than my 300.1s did - another way of putting it is that the Treasures really let me hear and appreciate how much better the Statements and the newly-modified VR-7s are than their predecessors.

fplanner2010

Owner
UPDATE - talked to 1 of my old buddies at Velodyne. After going through a bunch of variables, we both finally realized that with the use of the dd-15+'s volume control and slope setting, I can in effect have the sub cut in as much or as little as I want between 15-40hz. The mains will play full range REGARDLESS of where the sub low pass crossover is set in my current setup - it just SOUNDS louder and deeper with the sub on. The 7's are playing just as deep, but don't have 1250/3000w driving the woofers as is driving the 15" sub. That's why it SOUNDS cut off. but really isn't. If I crank the system, I get a bunch more bass out of the 7's, proving the above.

SO, I got to thank Kevin of VAC, Rob of Velodyne and Lloyd above for helping me figure this out before too much irreversible drain bramage! So, no additional external crossover needed at all - it should all work well together.

The mids are also going to be forward for the next 500 hrs or so until full breakin, according to AVS, which will make the bass sound recessed in comparison. That is another factor at work here. Time to hook my sub back up - hoorah!

fplanner2010

Sorry to hear that...my old DD18 is now back and fully operational again after the amp blew last week! Enjoying action flicks with my fiancee!

And the crossover for the sub is set at cutting off anything above 40hz with a 48db rolloff.

lloydelee21

Owner
After talking to Kevin at VAC, it looks like my cross-over problem solution lies in a variable outboard electronic x/over between the preamp and sub to roll off some of the signal below 40hz.

fplanner2010

Owner
Thanks. Musically, my modded VR-7's sound much better running full range and driven by the pair of VAC Statements than they do with the sub involved. I will still need a sub for movies - it would also be nice to be able to set the low pass to say 25hz for music, but the flawed software won't allow it.

I just wish Velodyne hadn't sabotaged the DD-15+ software. It would seem pretty simple to increase low-pass filter adjustability down to 15 or 20hz, yet they are refusing to do this, ignoring me and instead making really lame excuses. Poor service and lazy engineers, I guess. Too bad - it cripples the DD-15+ for my uses and they really don't seem to care.

fplanner2010

FPlanner,

Wow...did not know that. On my DD18, it does not have balanced inputs. So when i took the Velodyne totally out of the system (for repair)...there was no additional bass that came back...only the lost bass that the sub was providing.

That is a good thing to know for the future! Good luck with your own sub situation! Let me know what you think of DD15 being back in!

lloydelee21

Owner
Getting confused. There is 1 preamp with 2 pair of balanced and 2 pair of rca outs. New amps are connected to 1 pair of balanced outs, sub is connected to the 2nd pair(2 cables).

When they were still hooked up, I could turn the sub on and off. With the sub off, I lost some bottom end that I got back with the sub on. My speakers go down to 17hz.
When I took the sub totally out - disconnected from the preamp, I got back the bass the sub was providing, now thru the main speakers, plus more.

3 yrs ago, using the DD-15, AVS turned the low-pass up to 80 hz, unbeknownst to me for 1 year. For 1 year, I had no bass coming out of my speakers, whether the sub was on or not!! I didn't realize he had done that and once I discovered it, I changed the crossover down to 25hz and got my bass back. Velodyne said that's what should happen, so its not a huge concern, since I can make allowances if I know what's going on - I've just disconnected the sub's balanced cables from the preamp.

After breakin, I'll probably put the DD-15 back in and sell the dd-15+. Life is was too short to be dealing with this garbage... :-)

fplanner2010

Hi FPlanner...how is that possible? I am confident that does not happen with my DD18...because when i mute it, i hear the speakers playing full range. Unplugged and disconnected or not...the main speakers play full range.

In your case, if there is only one link between Pre and Sub (the preamp out to the signal-in on the sub)...how can the crossover travel backwards through the preamp out? And then cause the preamp signal to bifurcate before it goes thru the other Preamp out into the Amp? (Is the preamp separately and directly connected to the amp via another set of preamp outs?)

lloydelee21

Owner
That is exactly what I am doing, but the preamp listens to the sub crossover in not sending a full signal to the speakers. It cuts off at 40hz. You would think it wouldn't, but it does. Even if the sub is off, all the mains get is down to 40hz

We'll see if Velodyne contacts me about a "fix". Thanks for your comment - at least I am not alone.. :-)

fplanner2010

Fplanner2010,

I hear you! I own a DD18, and this is one reason i do not wish to change to DD18+. I might daisy chain to the DD18 someday, but not give up the DD18.

That said, i am not so sure Velodyne's older software worked too well below 40hz...because if you dropped it to 15hz...it should essentially be off...i am not sure if that happened or not.

In any event, why not just run the sub in parallel rather than use the internal crossover to your main speakers? (FWIW, I have always run my Velodyne in parallel.
one preout to amp and one preout to velodyne. so speakers are always running at full. Then i adjust velodyne to blend as best i can. YMMV.)

lloydelee21

Owner
Took my Velodyne out of the system, since it was diverting all signal below 40hz from the speakers. Huge difference - much better dynamics, jump factor and low-end musicality.

Unfortunately, Velodyne apparently can't figure out how to write software intelligent enough to allow consumers to adjust the low-pass filter below 40 hz. Consequently, I had to PHYSICALLY DISCONNECT THE XLR SUB CABLES FROM THE BACK OF MY PREAMP AND SHUT THE PREAMP TO RESTORE FULL BANDWIDTH TO MY SPEAKERS.

Although I like the sub's other features, the software for the DD-15+ has taken a giant step BACKWARDS so that the low pass can't go below 40 hz, an apparently arbitrary number picked by some suit 5 years ago. Ridiculous for a $6K subwoofer. My prior Velo sub, the DD-15, allowed the low pass to be set as low as 15 hz. Since I still have that sub, it will be replacing the more "advanced" DD-15+ any day now. Its a crying shame Velodyne can;t get its stuff together - I've had their subs for 25 years and been very happy, UNTIL NOW.

fplanner2010

Whoa! Sounds amazing! Enjoy! Thanks for continuing to keep us all posted! A lot of fun to watch the evolution of your great system!

lloydelee21

Owner
Thanks Lloyd - I appreciate the kind words. Amps and speakers now have about 200 hours on them and are opening up nicely. Both micro and macro dynamics are improving daily, as more inner detail gets revealed and bass authority improves. The bass is now considerably deeper than 100 hours ago, but still very fast and tight, with no audible distortion, regardless of volume level.

As the internal wiring and new mids continue to break in, the speakers are now starting to really disappear from the soundstage, a pretty good feat for 400 lb speakers! I know they aren't fully broken in yet - the sound put out by the VACs is just so "right" that the jump factor is already off the charts for a lot of music. I'm sure smiling a lot when the system is playing.. :-)

fplanner2010

Congrats on the new amps! I have heard they absolutely incredible...truly a new generation of amplification. Look forward to reading more about your comments as you get to enjoy them!!!

lloydelee21

Owner
Hi Dev-

Yes, there was music playing. I like this feature, as it gives me an instantaneous readout of how the tubes are performing. Plus it LOOKS COOL... :-)

I need to catch the speakers up to the amps - Albert VS says 500 hours needed on the new wiring and midrange. Should be able to narrow this down to about 200 using a specific song he recommends that particularly "exercises" the drivers, esp bass and mids("Night train" by Christian McBride). That is what I am playing overnite for 10-12 hours each nite. SO far, I'm 3 nights in. The anps have about 100 hrs so far - speakers as well.

I heard the power of the amps for the few days before doing the speaker upgrades, so I know what those amps can do. As I said, the frustrating part is getting the speakers "caught up" without having to buy my own utility company...!

May also be playing with the ICs between the APL and VAC preamp. Its an all-SR system - currently using a Cable Co demo of the Element C-T-S single ended, but its much too pricey to buy new from them. I also have an SR APEX which I own, plus Rick S's new ICs to try. Before I start trying any different cables, however, the system really needs a lot more "settling in".

fplanner2010

Great to read you are enjoying :-), they truely are amazing and will only get better.

Qustion for you, I noticed on your pics the LED's were lit up. I take it you had music playing?

dev

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